Committee members voting at the AGM

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16 Nov 2017 17:01 by peebee169 Star rating. 3 posts Send private message

We recently held our AGM and I asked to stand as a committee member. The administrator immediately stood up and stated that it was up to the a President who he had as a committee and it did not need to be voted on. Is this correct or is this the administrator trying to control things too much?





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16 Nov 2017 17:26 by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1376 posts Send private message

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Unless you have something written in your bye laws, most Spanish Administrators won’t even recognise a Committee structure as under the Law the President has total control.

You would normally elect a VP to stand in for the President and you may appoint Vocales, like Committee members but they have NO legal standing.

We changed our internal rules a while ago so that a Committee is elected at an AGM by owners NOT the President and I also introduced a rule whereby the President requires approval of one more Committee more for expenditure during the year of over €1000 unless previously agreed.

i fear that if a Spaniard took over as President he or she would ignore everything put in place and generally take back sole control.

recent events in Spain suggest Democracy is still very new.

PS your President has the power to tell the Administrator what they want NOT the other way round.

The Administrator is there to advise on legalities not make them.

 

 





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16 Nov 2017 18:33 by peebee169 Star rating. 3 posts Send private message

Many thanks for your response Hugh_man. Yes I tried the VP approach the previous year and I stood from the floor and again the administrator stood up looking a bit stunned and said it was up to the President to decide if he wanted a VP so it wasn’t voted on. 





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16 Nov 2017 18:35 by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1376 posts Send private message

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Have you discussed it with your President?





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16 Nov 2017 19:07 by peebee169 Star rating. 3 posts Send private message

Of course but we have a President who thinks he doesn’t need to do anything and is on a power trip.





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16 Nov 2017 19:31 by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1376 posts Send private message

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Lol, tell me about it. Do any of his decisions ever get challenged.

Sounds like he allows the Administrator to run things, a recipe for being ripped off, I hope someone questions contracts and acoounts.

Afraid your only choice maybe to challenge him.

You or others can stand st an AGM or you need 25% of owners to demand an EGM to vote.

Then all you have to do is ensure you have enough support from owners.

Simples really. 😉





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18 Nov 2017 11:52 by acer Star rating. 1087 posts Send private message

The comments from Hugh_Man are spot on.  The law and culture needs to be updated to reflect the 21st century - currently the HPA still reflects the Franco era. 

There should also be clear guidance on the President's remuneration, if any.   Sometimes is a very reasonable expense, but should be an agreed amount.  In my mind the legistation should dictate that if the amount exceeded the value of the annual community charge of the President it should be deemed as fraud if the amount was not agreed and recorded in the AGM minutes.

The amount of corruption that is still rife is outrageous.  But so much involves Town Halls and politicians there seems little hope of any improvement.





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18 Nov 2017 16:04 by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1376 posts Send private message

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I can’t possibly comment of the corruption of Presidents as I’ve not personally seen it but am well aware, it must exist.

One reason why I refuse to take ANY expenses, reasonable or not.

I have though witnessed Administrators getting contractors to over inflate their quotes in order to receive a kick back.

Very easy to persuade owners that all competetivecquites are acceptable, when some clearly aren’t.

At times it’s not always outright corruption, it is just the accepted way things are done in Spain and many other Countries.

The scratch your back scenario.





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18 Nov 2017 16:17 by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1376 posts Send private message

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Dupilcated, sorry.

 


This message was last edited by hugh_man on 18/11/2017.


This message was last edited by hugh_man on 18/11/2017.



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18 Nov 2017 18:18 by DazzaJ Star rating in Spain. 23 posts Send private message

I have limited experience of urbanisations as we do not live on one

But from what little I do understand it is a catalogue for disaster and so easy for corruption to exist

Maybe administration should be handed to the local council and a committee of residents as it is far too much responsibilty for 1 person





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18 Nov 2017 18:23 by acer Star rating. 1087 posts Send private message

If you simply "take your turn" as President, the for me any form of payment is unnecessary, but if the others decline to do so I reckon a fee of some sort is only fair.  But it should be upfront and not enhanced by other backhanders.  I know this isn't always the system here, but personally I struggle to accept anything different.

But President's remuneration is usually going to be small beer.  What still stuns me is the curruption that goes on elsewhere.  You never know the full facts and it might be duff information but it seems that even when there are circumstances that are highly questionable folk don't ask questions - this seems to be part "this is Spain" and part fear of retribution. 

You say <<...At times it’s not always outright corruption, it is just the accepted way things are done in Spain and many other Countries...>>  But I worked extensively in Europe, the Middle East and North America where I never encountered anything shady whatsoever.  But my dealings were very largely in the private sector - it seems to me that it's the public sector where corruption is prevalent.





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18 Nov 2017 19:19 by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1376 posts Send private message

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Acer

You may well be correct about “unusual dealings” being more prevalent in public operations.

I too have worked throughout Europe but also in the Commercial sector and can honestly say dodgy dealings were not prevalent in my day.

As I worked in Financial Services you may find that hard to believe but years ago we were brought up with the motto

“My Word is my Bond”and generally this was upheld with a few notable exceptions.

I am severely disappointed to note the corruption and greed that exists in the sector these days.

Also correct about the “This is Spain” syndrome. A majority of owners bury their heads in the abundant Spanish sand and don’t dare ask questions about how their investment is managed or run.

Dazza

I agree HPA is not ideal but works generally ok for smaller compact Communities, it eveloved from blocks of flats in Towns but has been expended tomdeal wth new resorts.

They are generally managed by a paid Administrator, covered by your Community fees, the President is supposed to be elected by all owners to approve contracts, and invoices and make decisions on their behalf of all owners,  but you can see the potential can of worms in that.

I agree a Committee structure would  be beneficial IF you can find enough volunteers from what are often holiday home owners with busy lives.

 


This message was last edited by hugh_man on 18/11/2017.



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18 Nov 2017 19:57 by DazzaJ Star rating in Spain. 23 posts Send private message

hugh_man

Thank you and I agree just don't see the sense in it all gald we are not involved in it all.





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18 Nov 2017 20:09 by acer Star rating. 1087 posts Send private message

Hugh_Man,  thanks for yours.  I was also in a sector of financial services - our motto was "uberrima fides", utmost good faith, which I must say was closely followed until the Americans arrived towards the end of the last century.  I don't blame the Americans directly, but there was a general culture change in the market and ethics has suffered a little, but only marginally.

When I first travelled to the Middle East in the 70's I was delighted with how honest they all were and that remained the case.

But in Spain it's disappointng.  I sold a property 10 years ago when I was obliged to give a solicitor a POA.  I cannot give details, but I was amazed how different practices are in Spain to that which you expect.

Dazza - I must say in my experience most urbanisations are run by honest people.  No doubt there are exceptions, including those who employ administrators, but even these are probably better off than to allow the local town hall to become involved.  Their standards are considerably lower and from my limited experience they are more expensive.

I just wish that the HPA was re-drafted.  It's a remarkably woolly, archaic document that is open to interpretation and is silent on lots of important issues like a President's remuneration.





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18 Nov 2017 22:05 by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1376 posts Send private message

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Dazza

I think the answer lies in the relative youth of democracy in Spain.

A previous, now apparently not mentionable Dictator, set out the standards for a massive bureaucratic presence base on public sector jobs and many levels of administration.

Few countries have as much autonomy as Spain, hence why so many build white elephants, like airports that never open and conference centres that are architectural triumphs but commercial disasters.

The Spanish are no longer allowed to talk about previous times, less than 100 years ago but a huge amount of the wealth and influence based in Madrid are the heart and soul of the ultra Conservative PP party, currently majority party in Parliament.

The biggest problem is the reluctance to change and embracing new or 21st century ideas.

I often hear the phrase

”it’s been like this for 60 years and it isn’t going to change anytime soon, a bit like 2 hour lunchtime closing, introduced by he that can’t be name to reduce energy useage during the war time years.

Hopefully the younger generation via Social Media and Internet will realise that Spain must change.

This May Help to understand the movements in Catalonia and previously the Basques for Independence from This Madrid regime.

But hey now we are digging deep into politics.





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18 Nov 2017 22:13 by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1376 posts Send private message

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Acer

Apologies, of course it was strictly Dictum meum Pactum.

Prior to Big Bang in 1987 word of mouth was enough to seal a contract between jobber & brokers& brokers& client.

No paperwork, no taped phone calls, no question of honesty.

You areright it changed once the Yanks arrived and created Financial Supermarkets, they buggered it in the early  90s then again in the early 2000s, will we ever learn.

Have you read or watched the Big Short, Michael Lewis, going off thread, sorry.





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19 Nov 2017 09:08 by DazzaJ Star rating in Spain. 23 posts Send private message

Hugh_man 

For me Madrid is no different to London or any oher capital city

One of the reasons we left the uk was to get away from the mess the uk is in  and the control of a few 





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19 Nov 2017 11:08 by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1376 posts Send private message

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Each to their own Dazza of course.

I still spend a total of 6 months of the year in both countries and am lucky enough to be able to enjoy both places.

Not sure whether it’s language, culture or what but I find Spain very difficult to deal with after 10 years back & forth and in far more of a mess than the U.K. with an even greater wealth gap and at times class gap.

Legal system is corrupt and outdated, banks are even more ludicrous than the U.K. and as Acer said its Public sector is a real joke.

The authorities in both places I live are complaining about water shortages as we still haven’t worked out how to recycle or capture rain water efficiently. Wastage.

Rajoy is having as many problems governing his own country as May and is even less popular

I hate the inefficiencies of the U.K. but I hate the corruption and inefficiency in Spain even more.

There are attractions however, it is currently 20c and sunny in Murcia and 8c and sunny in Kent.

Enjoy your life.





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19 Nov 2017 11:30 by DazzaJ Star rating in Spain. 23 posts Send private message

Hugh_man 

Maybe we will have similar views in the future but so far no problems with the Spanish system any more or less than we had with the uk

corruption is rife in both countries and unless you are rich the legal system doesn't work for many again in most places including spain and the uk

Nice to read different views 

Have fun

 





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20 Nov 2017 08:26 by acer Star rating. 1087 posts Send private message

Hugh_Man, thanks for yours (18th) yes I reckon the Americans have got a lot to answer for, I've never liked their flippant way of throwing money at short term "get rich quick" projects.  I recall in the early 80's being sent an article by my boss when the firm I worked for was being bought by a mega US firm.  The gist was that US excecutives spend 50% of their time politicking and sucking up to senior colleagues.  At the time I thought it was a joke, it wasn't.

No, I have not read/seen "The Big Short" but I googled it and I will get hold of the book - thanks for the tip.





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