Paris

What a load of old rubbish! We all know right from wrong and right minded individuals condemn wrong. There is no excuse, reason or debate to justify these actions or the silent endorsement of the same faith. I don't care if you think I am a racist a religionist or any other kind of "ist". I would have all of you brand me whatever you wish - rather than see another, innocent decent person attacked by unhinged nutters hiding behind a cloak of religion.

Woodbug, Sorry but your post is too simplistic.  We all know right from wrong in the culture to which we belong/grew up.

Simple example.   A person married in the catholic church cannot get a divorce within the rules of that church.     Non catholics would disagree with that,  thus one would believe divorce  was right whilst the other wrong.

As I said what is right or wrong for an indvidual,  depends on one's culture.

NB  I am only commenting on the basis of Woodbug’s post not on the right/wrong/ immorality etc of terrorist action, which I judge by my morality.  I would have the death penalty as a possible sentence for all murders.

** EDITED - Against forum rules **

It's not about religion, race or class - its about controlling a party of psychotic murderers who want to die ** EDITED - Against forum rules **

Isn't what you are debating in effect part of our evolution as human beings where the boundaries of civilised behaviour become defined irrespective of religious belief? 

The inference being that some cultures for whatever reason have developed the boundaries of what is/is not acceptable at different rates than others, and isn't this ultimately dependent upon acceptance of a world order and defining basic rules of law with emphasis on the evolution towards a "civilised" rule of law society?

http://worldjusticeproject.org/what-rule-law

For those interested see the section on Order and Security which states

Factor 5 measures how well the society assures the security of persons and property. Security is one of the defining aspects of any rule of law society and a fundamental function of the state. It is also a precondition for the realization of the rights and freedoms that the rule of law seeks to advance. This factor includes three dimensions that cover various threats to order and security: crime (5.1 particularly conventional crime), political violence (5.2 including terrorism, armed conflict, and political unrest), and violence as a socially acceptable means to redress personal grievances (5.3 vigilante justice). 

Just a thought!

Great post ads.

There are two separate subjects here. What causes young men and women settled into western culture to become terrorists? How can our societies prevent that culture of evil happening?

The dealing with the aftermath of it and societies subsequent retribution is not in doubt. In a sense that's the easy bit. What we need to learn in detail are the whys. Once understood properly, prevention can automatically follow if the issues are confronted and dealt with effectively by society and governments which have I believe a duty to follow it through.  

How do previous petty criminals migrate to crimes of such enormity? How are they so alienated from decency and normality they can look other young people in the eyes and mow them down?  Just to say they know right from wrong and simply choose wrong is not helpful and neither does it come close to any form of understanding.

I advocate that a clue to that understanding is the social conditioning these people suffer, living in the circumstances they do. Every one of the terrorists that have attacked France in recent times originated in the recognized immigrant ghettos of Belgium and France. I have actually been to some of them. If you spend any time in them you will come close to appreciating that our societies values are not shared by most of the population of these sink estates. They are deprived of what most of us take very much for granted as a pre requisite for a decent life. Add to that the active and deliberate radicalization by so called charismatic Imams who target young vulnerable people and you have a toxic mix waiting to explode. 

Politicians know it's taking place but seem inept at getting to grips with it. They are failing in their duty to society in providing that fundamental security mentioned in the previous post. The reason is because it’s too difficult to solve. They created the problem in the first place and it’s now an inter-generational struggle to repair the damage.

Can we ever understand the why? Yes, the social conditions may play a part in the radicalisation of young Muslims in France and Belgium but would the same apply to Muslims here in the UK? There does not seem any compromise that the West could make that would appease IS. They reject democracy and want to change the world order, only recognising their religion as the true religion and death to anyone that disagrees with their aims. Most of us wouldn't want to live under Sharia law and be taken back to the middle ages, so how can we ever undrstand them?

To start off, you need to understand what the rewards in Jannah (Paradise) are. The Quran says that those who do get into Paradise will be rewarded with blessings that eclipse anything on earth; unlimited food of your choice, riches, and wishes come true. Things considered sinful on Earth such as wine will be allowed, and people will be able to eat and drink all they want and not get full or hungover or sick. People will be reunited with their friends and relatives, we will all be made young again, and there will be no anger or pain. Everyone will be given palaces to live in, and clothing fit for royalty, with luxurious couches and thrones for everyone. There will be rivers of the purest water, milk, wine, and honey, all of which are better than any you will find on earth. Those who get to the highest part of Paradise, Jannah al-Firdaus, will also be able to see Allah with their own eyes. So, in a sense, Heaven is a paradise filled with pleasures. You need to imagine the context of when this idea of Paradise was revealed to the people; of the extremely stark and difficult life of ancient Bedouin Arabia. Something as simple as the constant flow of water in a stream was considered miraculous, so it would be natural to imagine heaven depicted this way, flowing with streams of water under the shade of huge trees. 

They kill under the name of a so called religion which they dont even know anything about themselves.

 It never was mentioned that they get 77 virgins,  they got 72 wives and 80.000 servants. 

Seems my anti-ISIL observations don't comply with the 'rules' here, therefore no point in making any further comment so I will leave it to the religious moralists to continue.

This is virgin territory in respect of the police and security forces having surviving atrocity terrororists to interview, let us hope that this leads to further arrests. 

Re the comment below: "To put this into perspective, there are 6 million muslims living in France. If one tenth of one percent were extremist, that would be 6,000. "

I've read many articles over the years as recently as this week, where army or security experts say the IRA only ever consisted of 200+ paramilitaries.  That was enough to cause chaos for decades, and many hundreds of innocent lives lost.  Add to that the thousands of jihadis stupidly allowed back into Europe along with the sophistication of technology that can be used for easy communiactions between them, I believe its a matter of time before there is an incident affecting thousands, not hundreds of innocent people at one time.

In many ways, we as a society only have ourselves to blame for our complacency.

Hep   This is virgin territory in respect of the police and security forces having surviving atrocity terrorists to interview,

No,  it is not virgin territory.  Police and security services in many countries have such experience over many years with ETA, IRA, PIRA etc.

            The Met London only recently carried out a training operation with a terrorist scenario.

Who were these terrorist survivors in custody, and what terrorist atrocities did they survive after participate in?  

Naved arrested on terrorism acts,  plus another 11 based on the information they got out of him.

4 in Batley and Sheffield, one still in custody.

2 men in Kent 4 days ago still in custody.

15 year old girl arrested under the terrorism act still in custody.

A 19 year old arrested May 2014 still in custody.

Of course what does custody mean? Does it mean in jail? On remand, let go on bail but under many conditions?

That will do for starters, but I think we can be assured that the man in the street knows nothing of the many others still locked away which don't get to reach the publics ears due to the far reaching terrorism act.

My post stated 'surviving atrocity terrorists to interview', I don't see the atrocity/atrocities.

The "Atrocity"  is in the fact these planned the act, these got caught and "Survived" before the act was acted out.

Nearly forgot the shoe bomber, he did the "Atrocity" or tried to anyway, and "Survived" the act, the dipstick who tried in his underpants, the two shot 'Survivors" who killed Soldier Rigby who did an act of "Terrorism".

I was actually congratulating the police for arresting surviving terrororists of one of the worst ever atrocities, obviously I was wrong to do so. 

The recent outpouring of human solidarity and defiance since the atrocity gives me more than hope these terrorists can never win or achieve their deluded aims.

The truth is when their very way of life is threatened ordinary people will defend it.

ISIS cannot fight the entire world. There is now a unity of purpose that will defeat them.

The unity of purpose you highlight Mickeyfinn has to be reflected across all "civilised" religious and political persuasions, but therein lies the challenge as to what constitutes "civilised society"....

Many would suggest any civilised society should strive to incorporate the need to imbue with humaneness or human kindness. Extremely difficult to achieve when faced with inhumane behaviour from those who refuse to strive for such ideals in pursuit of blind power and influence.

Ads - Agreed, but at least they don't kill innocent people going about their daily business.  Such subtleties no longer apply.  We're in the midst of asymmetric warfare.