Habitation certificate

valentinaradu, I'm unsure what you are saying - is there a word omitted in your comment?

The query relates to Habitation Certificates why do you mention licences for building extensions?

I'm not intending to be offensive, but you seem to be confusing matters  a bit!

Hi, I am really not, let me explain, I have been working for a town hall planning department for 4 years and the only situation when I saw the necessity of a new habitation licence being issued was when the owner had an extension done to the property, based on a building licence of course, and they needed a new habitation license-updated.

As Verona was saying in a previous thread they were requesting a new one and quite a high amount I believe could be this situation.

Also, just realized in my post below should say

"Verona, I answered also in a previous thread. What town is your property in? You shouldn´t need a new license if you had one when purchasing unless you had an extension done to the property, needing a new building license etc."

valentinaradu, many thanks for yours, your comment is now understood.

Hello, thanks for the replies so far. It is an apartment in Javea, so had no work done in the time we have owned it. My main concern was that the HC might have expired, but I take it this is not the case and they don't expire.

They don't expire usually, but in Spain, who knows?

(I'm sure you'll be fine).

There seems to be two threads running now about the same thing, so to keep it simple, I'll reply to both here on this one only.

(From the other thread) My bracketed numbers refer to the answers following:

"I have now been informed (1) we need the following: In order to sale it correctly we must obtain the CEE (Energy certificate) and the habitation certificate. The cost is 185 euros for the CEE (3) and 581 euros for the habitation certificate.(2) -  (Architect certificate 210 euros + Town Hall Tax 187 euros + 184 euros solicitors fees)

This sounds expensive and we already have a habitation certificate that we purchased when we bought the property, do I need to buy another one?"

1) Who has informed you? Presumably, your lawyer, but why? The buyer's lawyer must have asked for it, because as far as I know, it's not a legal requirement to produce one when selling. From another forum and a usually pretty reliable source (and an opinion I agree with): "It is not the notaries who are requiring sight of the licence it is the legal representatives of purchasers of properties which do not have one and, as far as I know, it is not required as part of the estate agent's 'legal pack'." I certainly have never needed one when I have sold properties (admittedly a good few years ago now), I have not heard of any new legislation requiring one to be presented in order to complete a sale, and none of the estate agents I know have ever mentioned anything about it being a requirement these days. Of course, I'm ready to be corrected if I'm wrong about any of this, or if something has changed!

2) The cost for architect certificate, town hall tax (???) and solicitors fees seem very excessive to me. Not sure why you would have "purchased" a habitation certificate in the first place anyway - if it was a new build, it should have been issued to the developer and a copy passed on to each new owner; I'm not aware of anyone ever having to pay for this. But anyway, if it's the buyer wanting it (as per my above point), then why don't they pick up any associated costs?

3) Unless it's a particularly large apartment, the cost for the energy certificate seems high to me. I recently got one for €90 for an 85m2 apartment.

From this thread:

"Selling my property an I have a HC. I have read some articles that say they last for 5 years others say 10. Mine is just over 5 years old. Does this mean I have to buy a new one to complete the sale or is it the buyers responsibility to obtain one?"

The habitation certificate is sometimes also referred to as a licence of first occupation. First occupation - not continuing occupation. It's issued when the building is completed, and does not expire, or need renewing. But again, I don't believe it's a legal requirement for the seller to present one at the notary, so I think you need to ask your lawyer, why you need this, and also why you should pay for it.

Hope this helps.

Thanks Roberto. My lawyer has asked for the it, so not sure if the buyers lawyer has requested it. Anyhow, I have sent a copy of the HC I was given when we bought the apartment and no he says that is fine, we don't need to buy one. Come to think of it, I don't think I did pay for it, it was passed on by the developer when everything was signed off.

As stated, he is saying I need to pay 185 euros for the CEE! Is this something I can get cheaper myself as it does seem expensive?

I've just checked on EPC Spain and for a property up 100m2 the cost of obtaining a CEE is €155 + IVA. So if you paid €90 you did well.

Shop around!!

No idea who EPC Spain are or how you found them (I have checked out their website), but here's my tip: when in Spain, try to avoid British / non-Spanish organisations (or blokes down the pub called Tony!!)

A quick Google turned up this comparison website, which even if you don't have much Spanish is pretty easy to use. Entering my postcode and selecting a piso (apartment) of between 80 & 120 m2 turned up 10 options, ranging between €49 & €102 +IVA, so even my €90 wasn't necessarily cheap - although prices have naturally come down since the EPC was introduced, and now that I check, the one I got was about a year and a half ago.

P.S. I would feel deeply suspicious of a lawyer who asked you for nearly €600 for a habitation certificate, and then dropped it completely when you showed him the licence you already had. Is it too late to find someone else?

Cheers Roberto, I'll give that a try. It has made me extremely suspicious. Why did he not ask if I had a HC first, or at least do some work to find out if I did have one. I'm not sure if it's too late now as he'll probably want paying for what, if anything, he's done.

The average local Spanish lawyer sees Brits as easy pickings - which is largely the case as we assume that they are acting in our best interests, but their ethical standards are very different.  

They rarely put anything in writing, not even an email and invariably unless you ask for something beneficial you won't get it.  They don't see their role as doing anything more than is necessary.  It's a different culture.

Also they are very aware that they need to maintain good relations with the local town hall and Spanish nationals - these are their future contacts, so if you are making a purchase from a local or have an issue with the town hall be very wary - they are not on your side as you might expect.  Their interests will always come first.

The aspect that surprises me most is the lack of detail in the Spanish conveyancing procedure.  When you buy in the UK the vendor is required to provide answers to lots of questions, effectively full disclosure of material facts, as per the Law Society guidelines.  In Spain if you want to know anything you have to ask yourself and the chances of having this confirmed properly in writing are non existent.  Caveat emptor rules!

Absolutely spot on, Acer! 

In the name of research, I popped in to our local natary's office this morning, and got to see a clerk - one of the ones who prepares all the paperwork for compra-ventas (property sales) for the notary. I asked exactly what documentation a seller is required to produce at the notary's when signing. Her answer: 

Official ID e.g. passport or national ID card, and residency certificate;

Fiscal residency certificate from Hacienda (if applicable)

Escritura (I've never actually had to produce mine when selling, presumably because the buyer or their representative has already obtained a copy and given it to the notary);

Last IBI (rates) bill;

Certificate from the community to prove all paid up;

Energy certificate.

Nada más.

I then asked, very specifically, if there was any requirement to produce a Licence of First Occupation / Certificate of Habitability. After an initial look of puzzlement, once she understood what I was asking, she said most emphatically, "NO". I asked, are you absolutely sure? She said again, "definitely NOT required when selling a property". More to the point, she seemed utterly confused as to why I was even asking about it. (I explained that I'd heard from Tony down the pub that it may be a requirement!)

I would add here that this is the reponse from just one notary's office, and being Spain, I could perhaps go to another one and get a different answer (although personally I doubt it). So my advice to anyone who is concerned about this is to go to the notary where you will be signing and ask for yourself just to be sure - but if it is the buyer or their representative who is asking for it, I would most emphatically tell them that if they want to see the LFO, then go get it themselves from the town hall, and at their expense, if any.

I hope this is helpful / useful info. 

Alternatively I would suggest that a buyer should insist from the outset that an LFO/habitation licence is required to be produced prior to any purchase process. To find at the last minute that no LFO or habitation licence exists is a waste of their money and time. IMHO, to perpetuate a system that leaves buyers vulnerable in this manner is wrong.

Roberto: did you ask about 'new build'? Perhaps followers of EOS would be misled if they thought the same applied to new builds!-as I understand the situation a LFO is requiired for a new build, not too sure about a refurbished unit and a buyer also needs this to connect to water and electic plus boletins

Ads, it's a fair point, and I don't disagree, in principal at least, and there should be some protection in place to prevent buyers unwittingly purchasing a property that cannot legally be inhabited.

But sticking to the OP's case, since there appears to be no legal obligation on the part of the seller to produce such a document (right or wrong), it has to be the buyer IMHO who obtains it if he wants it. After all, it's the buyer who obtains (and pays for) a nota simple to check there are no incumberances on the property. Even in the UK, it's the buyer who obtains & pays for local searches etc., not the seller.

And Spanishpunter, no, I didn't ask about new builds, simply because the OP on this thread is not selling (or buying) a new build; I don't think there are any EOS members who are developers, so we're only really discussing private individuals selling their own homes, as resales.

The problem, however, clearly is that developers should be required to obtain a LFO (which applies to the entire building, if we're talking about apartments) before they can divide up the property according to the Horizontal Law. The "system" should not allow them to sell individual properties until the LFO is issued, and I agree, to perpetuate the system as it is, is not satisfactory. But since it is what it is, and since older properties may not have a LFO simply because such documents didn't even exist when they were built, I think perhaps there should be some sort of amnesty, statute of limitations, call it what you will, whereby if a property has already been lived in and had utilities connected, then it is deemed to be fit for habitation - LFO or not. I seem to recall there's something to do with silence giving consent, when the LFO is requested from the town hall, after 30 days without getting a response from them, the licence is deemed to have been issued! Again, not really satisfactory, but my point here is simply that with a resale, there should not be any need to produce an LFO - and according to my source at the notary this morning, there is not.

Abaco Habitation Certificates

Spanish Solutions:
In Valen­cia Re­gion (in­clud­ing the Ori­huela Costa), when selling a prop­erty (so a re­sale) you need a Li­cence of Second Oc­cu­pa­tion. The ori­ginal LFO is for 5 years and if still valid and not ex­pired, you can sell the prop­erty with just the LFO. After 5 years, if there is go­ing to be a change of own­er­ship, the seller needs to ap­ply for a Li­cence of Second Oc­cu­pa­tion. It is your re­spons­ib­il­ity as seller, so you will have to pay.

Comaskey 

 It is important that you have a First Occupation Licence for your house if you are buying from a builder. You can buy it without the First Occupation Licence but you need to be aware that then you may have to pay the Town Hall and architect for a new one. So it is not illegal to sell a property without an LFO, but it is illegal to force a buyer to complete without one. The developer is contractually obliged to produce an LFO at the time of completion and not doing so would be breach of contract (unless the buyer waives this obligation).

– In the Valencia Region (including the Orihuela Costa), if you are buying a resale property it should have a Licence of Second Occupation. The original LFO is for 5 years. After 5 years, if there is going to be a change of ownership, the seller needs to apply for a Licence of Second Occupation. It is the seller´s responsibility.

So we are either talking about different thngs or different regions have different rules. As I was trying to point out, the agent I was going to sell with told me I would need one as the first one is only valid 5 years. The town hall told me I didn't need one as my first certificate was valid for 10 years, not five. If I insisted on one they could provide a new one (the second licence) also valid for 5 years but, I say again, only if I insisted (which I didn't). 

When I sold a previous property that came under the Orihuela Costa, it had no first licence either. All the notary required was a payment from me of €200 to provide the licence when they became available (this on the same area that fly380 talks about, the builders went bust).

Bob, if you had provided those links on the other thread where we were discussing this, I would perhaps have not bothered going to the notary today to ask about it, but you never replied to my questions! 

I've said many, many times over the years, different regions of Spain have different laws, regulations, systems - even languages! This seems to be just another example, and maybe I've fallen foul of my own admonitions. To be fair, verona didn't say where they are (and I don't know who or where fly380 is). I do nevertheless find it strange that a company like Ábaco, who although based in the Alicante region, also have an office in Marbella and say they serve all of Spain, publish an article about "Spain" that does not necessarily apply outside of one specific region of the country. But then again, as I said earlier, just because the notary I went to today says a LFO (or second occupation) is not required, doesn't necessarily mean one in Marbella won't say something different!

Incidentally, the "silence gives consent" rule that I mentioned earlier apparently now is the opposite: 

Negative Administrative Silence Rule

If the Town Council does not respond to a requests, the licence is deemed rejected under the ‘negative administrative silence’ rule in Spanish law.

Until July 2011 this was called the ‘positive administrative silence’ rule, but this law has now been turned on its head. Whereas before, a lack of response in a 3-month period meant ‘yes’, now a lack of response means ‘no’.

(From Spanishpropertyinsight)