An Englishman Abroad?

 So you are sitting at home in the UK, and you decide to leave and begin a new life in a foreign land. The decision is to live in Spain (or maybe somewhere else, its your decision), so you sell up and move lock stock and barrel to the chosen land, a land of opportunity and wonderful freedom.

 The thing is , at the first taste of any officialdom from your adopted country, why is it an English person then considers the country and its legislation draconian and unfair? I thought the person left the UK for this very reason, and now finds their adopted country no better than the UK, and some even consider Spain worse!

Maybe i am being unfair (and i am sure there are many more people who are completely happy with Spain than not) but just what is it with the people who moan and complain continually about Spain? I thought it was the promised land, and thats why people move there in the first place?

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Well said Robert

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 I guarantee I won't moan, if I don't like something, I either make the best of it or move on.

I been to an awful lot of the world and have never found anything that I can't adapt to. Us Brits sadly hope everyone will revolve around us -WRONG - but it should in Great Britain!

I hope to be in Spain by January & am tremendously excited about it all

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 You have to live in a place for a period of time. to know what it's like and if it's for you. You can research life in Spain for ever, but it's not like it is in the books. Many out here have good reason to "moan." I don't mean they can't buy their favourite  UK biscuits, but Spain  is  unregulated in a lot of areas, and trying to get justice without lining the pockets of lawyers is difficult. Knowing who to complain to, language difficulties, problem developers, medical problems all add to the stress. 

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I am no lover of regulation, most is misplaced or unnecessary and often counter productive, however I did not realise that anyone

was ducking it by moving to Spain, is that because they ignore all EU regs there?

I thought they moved for better climate. Though they do admire the corruption and laid back attitude it seems.

Glad to here you are enjoying your freedom there - tell us more.

Regards

Norman

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Norman, you're a scream.  I think one of the main problems (I may be wrong) with many of the expats is that they don't actually know what is going on.  When I was talking to my daughter's school teacher, when she was three years old, and we had just moved to Spain, the teacher was obnoxious.  All I'd asked was whether it was possible for her to put my daughter and an English girl on separate tables as otherwise they would be talking English.  There were 25 people in the class, 20 Spanish, 4 British and 1 German, and the tables all sat 5 children.  'We are not an academy of Spanish! I'll do what I want,' she replied, with a fixed grin and my friend (the mother of the English girl) who hadn't understood what she'd said, beamed at her, saying, 'muchas gracias.'  I said, under my breath, 'no, she was just really horrible.  Don't thank her.'  Lots of expats used to find the Spaniards in the town quaintly gruff, when actually they were quite rude (this anti-foreigner attitude led us to move from the town); but many non-Spanish just didn't have the linguistic skills to pick up on what was being said.  I think that this lack of understanding of the Spanish language is key and I know it must be tricky for older expats but they really need to have a go and try and get the hang of it.  I've got no idea what the fluency level of many people on this Forum is; I tend to think that many don't have a great command of it (this may be erroneous), and I don't mean this as a criticism as I don't know how difficult it might be for older people to learn a new language and also how difficult it may be for people who left school with the idea that they would be no good at languages when in fact they might be quite good. 

When you talk to ordinary Spaniards at the moment, you see that the situation is pretty grim, but maybe some expats, with independent incomes (yes I know these have been diminished with the changing exchange rate), can carry on their daily lives fairly oblivious to all of this.  I don't know - Spain is pretty big and people's experiences are all very different, depending on whether they are living on urbanisations, out in the country, in the city,  in a village and so on.  But the suffering of many Spaniards is very real.  The father of family friends of ours has now had to go to France to work and so the wife is now like a single mum - they're having to make these sacrifices (although I have also seen expats make the same necessary decisions to split up the family temporarily)...

Anyway, off to bed.  Got to get a life or will be like the youngsters, addicted to the internet.  Nos da.

 

This message was last edited by eggcup on 11/09/2012.

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 Afurther thought i have had about An Englishman Abroad, and that is maybe that as they are "hiding" in their adopted country they feel rules will not apply to them , as they are not Spanish by birth, and because they are "clever" they will not be detected because they are transparent, no one will see them , and as a result they will easily fall under the radar detection level?

(maybe for "clever" read stupid!)

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Bore da cwpanwy, sut wyt ti?

This is a welsman abroad. Very good post there, I am one who has found it very hard to leard the language, but where I am the Spanish people are very patient and friendly. Oh how lucky I am

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 Haydngj, they probably find a Welshman a refreshing change from a whingeing Brit! 

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We Welsh are also British it's not just the English that are brits SO ARE THE Scots and Irish.

Sorry I shouted

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 i stand corrected.....whingeing ENGLISH!

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 Eggcup put it very well. I've been in Spain for some time, speak fluent Spanish and live permanently in Spain 12 months a year.

Language is the key factor. Without it your life will be very complicated and that is when the whingeing starts! Doesn't matter if you are 

English, Scottish or Welsh, when you are in Spain it's all the same, what you need to do is put your Spanish hat on and start behaving as a Spaniard. Information is also vital, without it you are lost and the whingeing starts again. So the solution is to do your best to learn the language and get all the information relevant to you as soon as possible, accept it as it is, because whingeing will not change anything and just get on with life. Only then  can you put the bureaucracy to one side and enjoy everything Spain has to offer. Which is endless!

Eggcup in ref. to your comment on  the teacher, I've seen a bit of everything. Fantastic teachers who are highly dedicated to their profession and others who clearly chose the wrong line of work. Maybe there was an issue with expats in that town, but I've always lived in a large Cities, Madrid, Valencia etc and have never ever felt that feeling of Anti-Foreigners. I have a feeling from what I hear, is that this feeling seems to be more present in areas where Brits or Germans or any other nationality seem to congregate for retirement or holidays and it can be understandable that the locals may have the impression that they are being "invaded" and the ones who tend to complain are the ones that won't make any money from the foreigners, like teachers! The shops,cafe bars and retail in general obviously, are a different story!

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Hi Mac

Yes, the town where I used to live had maybe 20% non-Spanish residents (if we take my school class as a guide - with 20 Spanish out of 25 pupils) and there is evidence, both statistical and anecdotal, that when there are a couple of foreigners present they can be viewed quite favourably as something a bit exotic and interesting.  I don't remember the percentage that usually leads to a 'tipping over' of this into an anti-foreigner sentiment, but it may be around 15-20%.  It is then that the native population might start to feel swamped and respond in a negative fashion. 

You also make a very good point about whether it is in the interests of various Spaniards to welcome foreigners or not.  The influx of foreign children were a pain for the teachers in this town who stood to gain nothing (I might add that my son had an absolutely charming teacher; really lovely), but obviously a welcome presence to retailers,  restaurateurs,  builders and so on who could profit from their presence.  What I found strange in this particular town (I'll keep you all in suspense and invite guesses regarding what town I could be referring to - no cash prize, just for fun - and I'm not promising to tell you at the end, either), was that my hairdresser would answer my polite enquiries about her holidays etc. (a cliche, I know) whilst she was doing my hair, but even after going to the same person monthly for a year, she would still ignore me in the street.  Ditto with some (not all) retailers.  So, I tend to think it was a freakish town and do not think at all that it resembled any other.  However, it is a truism to me that when you articulate what you consider to be strange and atypical scenarios, others often report similar experiences. 

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 Eggcup i think your view that it was."a freakish town and do not think at all that it resembled any other. " may be the actual fact that foreign people tend to be a bit like that. When i used to go to Italy regularly another driver told me a story about Italian behaviour. He said he had delivered to a factory on a bank holiday weekend and a factory worker asked what he was going to do over the weekend. When the driver said he was stuck there till Tuesday morning ,the Italian said that was not right and to come round to his house on the monday , as he was having a family gathering. The driver went round and said he had one of the best days singing, dancing, eating and drinking he ever had, a really brilliant day.

About three weeks later he was in the same factory and saw the same italian coming across the factory, and he kept going without even acknowledging the driver, who could not believe that after such a good charitable day he was blanked, and only after a few weeks.

Maybe its a Meditteranean thing?

 

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Our own experience since moving to Spain permanately is to learn a little Spanish, SMILE A LOT ! research everything you do,

and ask people that have "done it"

(Age care is a wonderful source of knowledge from people who have "been there and done it" just go to their coffee mornings and have a chat with others ).

I have to say we have never had a problem with buders/developers, banks, health system or anything really. Maybe we have been lucky compared to some people who have lost homes and money, or were we ???

Spain is a wonderful place to live, of course there are frustrations, but there are frustrations in the UK too (infrastructure !! don't get me started). The main problem we have here seems to people that come here and (as someone else pointed out) they think they can do what they like.

OH Well, the sun is out AGAIN Lol

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It's not just the English. I've seen many "Northeners" suffer in many countries. I attribute this to a "Bwana Effect". Ex-pats long to be catered to. They buy this fake treatment in lesser developed nations. In Spain, that's not going to happen. 

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Great question, Robert, and so far an interesting thread with constructive points.

I speak as an experienced newbie, if such a thing can be! A few of you have seen my blog here on Eye on Spain, started last month when l moved into my bit of paradise. But l had gone through the process 7 years before with my ex, and spent a good chunk of time each year in a tiny Spanish hamlet, so had experienced the different processes necessary for day-to-day life. This, very helpfully, meant l have been able to go In wIth my eyes a bit wider open than other first-time purchasers. Oh and l speak the language. Not fluently, but certainly well enough to chat properly with my neighbours, and have moderately political (small p) and philosophical conversations, ie more than just food and shopping.

The point about whether we (the incomers) collectively become a perceived problem to locals is very important for me. I am ashamed of what groups of Brits have done along some of the coastal strips. I believe, rightly or wrongly, that "we" have contributed to the crisis by participating in a mass buying of apartments and bars along the Costas, leading (in part) to the over-development and the ridiculous number of half-built blocks blighting the coastline.

So when researching my chosen village, l sat in bars, got involved in general conversations, and once involved, asked the locals how many Brits lived in the area and what the view of them was. In particular, I asked a couple of successful business people with a key investment in the village. Their responses were interesting. The population of Colmenar village is about 2,800, with a further 800 or so living out in the campo and the "dependent hamlets". There are approx 320 extranjeros. But of those 320, about 85% live in the campo. I think there are about 20-30 living in the village. Brits are the biggest nationality amongst extranjeros, but make up only about 55%. The rest are Dutch, German, Canadian, Russian etc. So what the locals said was that they liked the incomers who had chosen to live in the village, because almost all of those spoke the language. They said it was quite annoying in the feretería when the campo people took so long to mime what they wanted without having bothered to look it up first (but l must say the patience of the staff is amazing!). And they said they don't say hello to the campo people when they are in the supermarket because they don't know them.

The two business people l talked to were quite clear. Incomers to the village AND the campo people are valuable because they keep the number of little shops going, keep population numbers up (though young people leaving is less of a problem recently as the kids have no money and no work, sadly), which is generally good for the village. When l asked if they feared an influx that might lead to "lrish theme bars" and all-day English breakfasts, and a demand for restaurant menus printed in English, they didn't see that as likely. They kept coming back to the fact that the people who chose to live in the village, and who choose to try and integrate, all speak the language (yes l know there's a whole big issue about whether anyone really integrates, but that's for another thread!).

So the language kept being mentioned as the number one issue.

I think mac and eggcup put it really well. Information is key. And without the language you never truly have access to the information. You will smile and nod, be welcomed up to a point, but you won't wholly understand what is going on. Which crop is the family next door most dependent on? Is it a good harvest or not? What affects that? The hundreds of thousands of almonds my neighbour brought in on Tuesday were being sorted yesterday. Fortunately the heap of high-quality ones, which go for frutos secos, is large. The rest, not quite so good, go for turron. A good crop, and anyway it's a secondary income for this family. In your mother country, these are the things that you know and understand instinctively. Things that affect your community. I don't think we can live here in some isolated bubble, floating above our neighbours' (our hosts') problems.

So to pull myself back to the real question originally asked, l too am stunned at the moaning. Many here moan about things which are merely different. Not bad, not evil, just different! These are things they should have understood before committing to the move. And as one great reply on my blog said - perhaps some people just aren't cut out to live in somebody else's culture!

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I really don't know why when anyone thinks of moving lock stock and barrel to somewhere else, after doing some research of to where they might want to settle, that they rent for a year. Unless you know somewhere really well because you have family and or friends there already, renting will give you a much better idea of what it's like to live there without commiting everything, ending up in somewhere you don't really like. I agree language is the key to making life easier, but most people I know have learnt little of the language. Trying to learn a language in your retirement years is never going to be easy.  Then there is getting into the way another country operates, most not like they are used to. If you can't speak the language you live in a bit of a bubble and really don't have a clue what is going on. People leave their countries looking for something better, most never find it, living is just living, unless you have more money than you'll ever need. Maybe more sunshine, but life still goes on.

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Quite right Robert.  They should bugger off home and give the rest of us a break.  In my experience it's the ones who don't get involved in their community who are the worst.  Spain can be wonderful, but you can't just sit back and wait to be entertained....

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Really interesting, I totally agree, language skills are the key. Due to various reasons, we are unable to live full time in our apartment in Formentera del Segura but intend to in the future. Meanwhile I have let a room in my house here in the UK to a Spanish girl who has come to uk to work in a tapas restaurant, she holds two first class degrees in economics, and business administration! But cannot find a job in the Alicante region, anyway I digress. She made it a priority to learn English and I have said we will do language lessons, as I will speak her language before I do any move to Spain. We have a great system, one day is only English, the next day only Spanish! Guess who finds it easier! We moan about the influx of eastern Europeans in my part of UK, and it is generally because they do not integrate, contribute or speak the language, I expect that's why expats get a rough ride in Spain. One of the things we do thou in our adopted community is go to the Spanish restaurants and cafe, order in Spanish, try to chat in Spanish(badly!) to the staff, and support their business. Although we have only been in them maybe a dozen times on visits, we are greeted like friends..........albeit ones that speak hilarious Spanish! But I hope we can be seen as trying to fit in and not just another pair of Brits who don't make an effort.

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