Changeover costs

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09 Mar 2012 00:00 by fultond Star rating in Haywards Heath & Tor.... 242 posts Send private message

Apologies if this has already been viewed, but I posted earlier and cannot find the original. I have had one useful response (thanks Roy), but was hoping for some other independent views as a comparison.

We are looking to rent out our apartment in Benalmadena for the first time this year. A neighbour has offered to dothe cleaning and towel/laundry changeover. She has never done this before, and we have never had to make such arrangements. Can anyone advise what is a mutually agreeable rate to charge. Any conditions would be appreciated. Please PM if you do not want to publish openly.

Thanks, Dave



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09 Mar 2012 10:41 by costa.del.sky Star rating. 97 posts Send private message

 I know someone with a smiliar arrangement, they normally charge 40€ each changeover, for cleaning and keyholding.





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09 Mar 2012 23:13 by gwm Star rating in Pizarra. 139 posts Send private message

40 euros...very cheap. a two bed apartment should take 4 hours to clean including changing the linen, if it's done properly i.e. clean fridge and oven, sweep, dust  and mop throughout including terraces. If the linen is taken to the laundry this will be about 60/70 euros.





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10 Mar 2012 00:49 by cbrammeld Star rating. 172 posts Send private message

 The price I was given was 50 euros for cleaning and 7 euros per person for linen and towels. All cleaning materials and soap powder I had to supply as it was the washing machine in the property that was to be used.

78 euros, for a family of 4, is a big chunk from the rental fee.





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10 Mar 2012 09:07 by cazzy Star rating in Inland Andalucia. 180 posts Send private message

 We are not in your area but we charge 100 euro for a cortijo. It has 3 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms etc. It also has a pool which we clean and lots of terraces and garden. This includes the linen (8 persons) and towels. It also includes seeing the holiday makers in and out and collection and return of their deposit. I know it is totally different but might give you some idea.





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15 Mar 2012 22:22 by growler Star rating in Birmingham & Benejúz.... 164 posts Send private message

Call me a cheap-skate but surely €40, €50, €70 or whatever is likely to make the average holiday letting "business" unsustainable?

Gwm, I'll bet there are thousands of hotel service staff working across europe that would love you as their shop-steward!

Lets not get carried away..  I wonder how many of the friendly neighbours offering changeover services will be declaring their earned income so they pay tax on it?.. not a chance!!!, I believe the tax rate is about 24% or so?.. so €40 of nice crisp, black economy, cash would be equiv to €52+ gross (e.g. if they worked in a spanish hotel).

I'd guess €25 should be about right and if my apartment took 4 hours to clean after a stay someone would definitely be losing their security deposit!!!!    


 



This message was last edited by growler on 15/03/2012.

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Kind Regards..Pat



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16 Mar 2012 06:13 by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5247 posts Send private message

 

Not wanting to put a damp squib in there but I hope you have, the authority from your community (not prohibited from letting by the statues) and had the property inspected and approved by the Junta de Andalucia as suitable for letting, and will be paying social security on the payments you will make to cleaner, maintenance man etc  (I know people have been getting away with it for years but there has not been a crisis before and the government desperately need income, as does the social security system).
 
Those who never paid the non residents property owner taxes are now being chased by the tax man, they thought that would never happen, just like those who for years have been letting illegally.
 
After you have paid all the fees and taxes (including income on tghe rentals, tax and social security, and maybe even IVA and professional charges for tax returns etc) do you think you will have enough left to make letting a reasonable proposition, considering the probability of damages etc?
 
Please don’t think I am advising you not to let but make sure you are FULLY aware of what it entails. It is not straightforward and the chances that you will get proper advice from even a ‘professional’ is doubtful, as most follow the old dictum, ‘that’s the way we do it here in Spain.’  That was what the people who are now facing demolition were told by their experts too !

 

 



This message was last edited by johnzx on 16/03/2012.



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16 Mar 2012 09:18 by inspectahomespain Star rating in Orihuela Costa, Spai.... 2417 posts Send private message

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I am the Roy who PM's initally a respense to Dave as for some reason his original post was on the Corvera forum in Murcia and this is where my business is based

We typically charge €70 for a clean with linen for a 3 bed apartment and we as a business can do this because we have  a volume of properties so can bulk launder linen when we need to, buy commercial cleaning products and reclaim IVA on our costs and this seems the going rate.The only extras are window cleaning and additional linen used over the normal weekly allowance

It actually take 2-3 hours to clean a typical property but because this site is still under construction, and in the country, properties require 2 cleans one on departure and a second to clear the dust and spiders just before arrival and only then do we make up the beds because they get stale if left

There are many neighbours who, because they are not legal, paying tax or even insured as a business and even throw in the odd airport collection, who will be cheaper but the real problem comes if anythng goes wrong for example a break in or if a renter injures themselves or damages something.

For example after a break in somebody has to make the declaration at to the Police to start the insurance process and the first thing they ask for is proof that you are authorised to do this. There are examples where insurance companys have disallowed insurance claims when the person holding the keys is not working legally, the same if the property is damaged for example a flood, let us be honest if there is a way for an insurance to get out of paying they may use it.

For this reason you should always check if the company that you are using is legal, and of course get referencies, ask how they stiore their keys, test their contact numbers especially if they provide 24 hour cover. Do they check the properties on a regular basis, if yes ask to see the process and logs of existing customers and finally what are the extra charges, I found a company charging €10 to change a light bulb, this was their standard per item charge

 



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Roy Howitt Independent Property Consultant www.sonrisaproperties.com www.snaggingspain.com WE CAN FIND YOUR DREAM HOME 627 955 748



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16 Mar 2012 10:41 by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5247 posts Send private message

Quote    "For example after a break in somebody has to make the declaration at to the Police to start the insurance process and the first thing they ask for is proof that you are authorised to do this. There are examples where insurance companys have disallowed insurance claims when the person holding the keys is not working legally, the same if the property is damaged for example a flood, let us be honest if there is a way for an insurance to get out of paying they may use it."
 
I am not saying this is incorrect but in over 15 years as a voluntary translator specifically assisting people who need to make crime reports (denuncias) I have never known the police ask such a question.





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16 Mar 2012 10:49 by inspectahomespain Star rating in Orihuela Costa, Spai.... 2417 posts Send private message

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Perhaps his varies by area, and I am not tring to generate business, but specifically I have been recently dealing with a number of incidents and on every occasion the Police and insurance campanys have asked for this information



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Roy Howitt Independent Property Consultant www.sonrisaproperties.com www.snaggingspain.com WE CAN FIND YOUR DREAM HOME 627 955 748



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17 Mar 2012 03:25 by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5247 posts Send private message

Inspector.
 
 As you are ‘in the business’ would you like to put on record what the legal requirements are (see my post below) which must be complied with before a privately owned property can be let ?





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17 Mar 2012 07:53 by inspectahomespain Star rating in Orihuela Costa, Spai.... 2417 posts Send private message

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Certainy there are obigations to pay tax on the rental income and of course, if you have a good accountant, offset the expenses against the tax liability and the Hacienda are working hard ti catch non-residents that are not paying, checks through the utility providers and on holiday rental sites

The requirements howvever to register the property for rental vary by region so I am not able to comment on all of the various regulations, for example in Murcia certain developments are already designated as holiday resorts for rental



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Roy Howitt Independent Property Consultant www.sonrisaproperties.com www.snaggingspain.com WE CAN FIND YOUR DREAM HOME 627 955 748



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17 Mar 2012 08:20 by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5247 posts Send private message

Inspector
                    You did not mention that at least until last year, and I have not seen anything official which changed it, that non resident property owners, could not claim expenses nor losses  against income tax liability on rental income. So no deductions for cleaning, maintenance, breakages etc. That is, Tax to be paid at 24%  on the 100% of rentals collected.  Only resident owners could off set expenses.
 
They also even had to pay the 24% tax on the any amounts collected to pay utility bills.
 
That was not a local regulation so you must have been ensuring that your customers complied. So maybe you would tell us where we can see any change, if there was one.





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17 Mar 2012 08:43 by inspectahomespain Star rating in Orihuela Costa, Spai.... 2417 posts Send private message

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As with all services in Spain our recomendation is that you use a professional company, an expert in accounting in Spain to make the necessary declarations and to ensure that I operate within the required regulations

In my own case my accountant was able obtain allowances against the expenses as a resident  but there are also ways using the UK tax payer, as a UK resident to claim aganist the expenses for a property in Spain

For example if you rent a property on a long term basis you can avoid any liabilty for tax on the payment of utility bills by having these paid directly by the renter

Most people know that I have been contributing to this forum for many years and i have written articles and given advice on property consruction and defects, what I don't claim to be is an accountant, translator or lawyer which is why I pay for these professional services and refer our clients to a company that is abke to help them with these very important matters

I know that using these servuces cost but they can often save you more than they cost



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Roy Howitt Independent Property Consultant www.sonrisaproperties.com www.snaggingspain.com WE CAN FIND YOUR DREAM HOME 627 955 748



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17 Mar 2012 12:52 by Jarvi Star rating in Halifax UK and Sucin.... 754 posts Send private message

If I were you I wouldn't bother with renting out, by the time you pay all the charges taxes etc, unless you,re renting fully all year round it doesn't seem worth the hassle.  I don't know where these cleaning companies get their figures from but some of them seem to be ex-pats making a killing out of what they charge others Brits. If you were to get a cleaner in the UK to clean your home you would get ppl queuing up for the job even if you paid minimum wage. At current rates that would be around £26 for 4 hours work or about  22 euros. (Are the wages 100% higher in Spain?). I think I might start a national cleaning company in Spain and undercut them all.





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17 Mar 2012 16:10 by inspectahomespain Star rating in Orihuela Costa, Spai.... 2417 posts Send private message

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Minor question in the Uk it may be a clean here you are talksing about 2 cleans per property,  the linen plus making up the property ready for the next visitor so where do you get 4 hours from, add another 2 hours ironing and washing and you getting closer to the real time

Oh then of course there is the cost of materials on top of that, then of course the tax, oh yes and the NI payments, then a bit of travelling almost forgot the PL insurance



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Roy Howitt Independent Property Consultant www.sonrisaproperties.com www.snaggingspain.com WE CAN FIND YOUR DREAM HOME 627 955 748



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17 Mar 2012 17:08 by Jarvi Star rating in Halifax UK and Sucin.... 754 posts Send private message

Oh yes I forgot all those things are free in the UK..





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17 Mar 2012 17:32 by inspectahomespain Star rating in Orihuela Costa, Spai.... 2417 posts Send private message

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If you have a cleaner in the UK you pay an hourly rate, provide the cleaning materials, they wash any items I would expect in your property, using your electricity, and your water and the employment costs are nothing like as much as in Spain

A management company, cleans the property using their naterials, they remove the linen and launder it using their materials, electricty water etc so actually the owners is not paying for any of these costs in Spain, unlike in the UK

Now there are companys who will not tell you that they will use your materials and utilities but they won't tell you and I even know one company that washed everybody elses washing in their property because they had a good tumble dryer

Jarvi can I please ask you a simple question, do you have a business in Spain, do you even have a rental property in Spain and any REAL practical experiences that you can base your opinions on beacuse i have almost 100 clients here, paying the reasonable going rate which is €60 to clean and launder a 3 bedroom property

If you would like to do this for me for 22 euro, including linen laundered, please come to Spain and I will give you a job but you can invoice me and pay your own NI and tax

By the way you can reduce the standing charge for electricity bu changing yto a lower potencia


 



This message was last edited by inspectahomespain on 17/03/2012.



This message was last edited by inspectahomespain on 17/03/2012.

_______________________
Roy Howitt Independent Property Consultant www.sonrisaproperties.com www.snaggingspain.com WE CAN FIND YOUR DREAM HOME 627 955 748



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17 Mar 2012 17:45 by Poppyseed Star rating. 898 posts Send private message

johnzx we've had the conversation re offsetting expenses against tax before. Since 2010 EU residents who own property in Spain can offset expenses as per EU directives even if they are not resident in Spain.

http://www.ptireturns.com/en/tax_info/es.php



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17 Mar 2012 17:48 by inspectahomespain Star rating in Orihuela Costa, Spai.... 2417 posts Send private message

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This is exactly why you refer people to the experts in their field, thank you for your response



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Roy Howitt Independent Property Consultant www.sonrisaproperties.com www.snaggingspain.com WE CAN FIND YOUR DREAM HOME 627 955 748



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