ITV Homes from Hell / Parador Properties

@chills

"before final completion, at the Inspection Stage, noted a substandard build and therefore did not complete."

Not completing, even on a substandard build, is breach of contact!

You have to complete and then take the builder/promoter to court.

or...

Pay your last payment into a notarised account, and wait for the builder/promoter to take you to court, and then argue your case!

Not completing will result in you loosing everything, and to advocate to others that they do the same is insidious to say the least!

Having followed .. without posting apart from maybe three times since mid July I think it is .. much of what the forum members have posted I'm going to comment here seeing as Techno has mentioned my name amongst others

He said 'Need I remind other users of this forum that the people who contributed the most to this forum, such as Bobaol, FibbyUK, Morerosado, Roberto et al, have all diminished in there replies and  to topics on this forum, and joined the silent majority and/or not left the forum all together.

It is users such that I have mentioned that helped make this forum what it is! 

And why have they left?

Because of users such as Norman doing what they do best, over the last two years!'

It certainly wasn't because of Norman. Just wanted to clear that up!

I have been a member of various ExPat forums for 5 years... with the main aim to give / find info' / advice from others about life in Spain. ... ' a problem shared...' and all.

And every forum I have joined end up with too much 'off-topic' bickering which spoils the ideal of sharing, meaningful discussion. They generally become a soap opera and often draw you into a bitter, spiteful or worse "debate". Forums on the web in general are like this because they are generally anonymous and visited and spoiled by people who have a combination of : too much time on their hands, an axe to grind, are generally miserable and usually ill equipped to deal with a difference of opinion. And of course the Brits are renowned for complaining in writing but don't have the 'guts' to do a one-to-one confrontation. Also the written word tends to be mis-interpreted or 'cold' and so often many replies are to deny/confirm 'what I meant'.

Sadly this is another thread (forum) ruined and has morphed into personal and childish feuds... and I have been drawn into another wasteful voyeuristic past-time.... so as the Dragon said  "I'm Out" !!

.... except to say would anyone like to join my newly formed forum "Moaning Expata R Us" ?

Zoso you wrote

Forums on the web in general are like this because they are generally anonymous and visited and spoiled by people who have a combination of : too much time on their hands, an axe to grind, are generally miserable and usually ill equipped to deal with a difference of opinion. And of course the Brits are renowned for complaining in writing but don't have the 'guts' to do a . one-to-one confrontation

You forgot to add amateur psychologists who cant sleep and post at 3.30 in the morning

lighten up man

LOL 

You're right !! - but I was awoken by the ITV camerman and roving reporter filming a fly-on-the-wall - warts and all documentary about Expat Forums from Hell !!

 Dear All,

sorry, have I got it wrong, is EOS just an ex-pats happy club where negatives must not be mentioned, even on a single thread such as this and only in the chit-chat section??????

why cannot the happies just be happy and leave the victims alone, not that their hot air is of any consequence whatsoever, what total insecurity?????

just look at the Viccky case and the Prior's case, also the unfortunate Spanish families whose lives have been destroyed. EOS can do nothing except remind others to make a stand and if necessary vote with their feet, as many have done and will still do.

How strange to nitpick the details, what am?, what status?, 2004 - so long ago, bizarre.

it is unfortunate when people's ego's make them so unpleasant and just like citizen's band radio hiding behind funny names leads to the worst behaviour.

I don't even understand why some must post pictures of themselves, if they are themselves and not just Nigerians trying to make contact?????

I rather think that some here would have little credibility in my old service mess.

One rather worrying bit of information that should be straightened out is Techno's  insisistence that Maria is wrong when she tells us that everything in a contract plus brochure must be provided at contract stage and not afterwards.

I of course have much experience in construction and cannot conceive of buying half a house and sueing the builder for the other half later. Is this more dementia?

As to Techno's personal plight as pm'd to me, they certainly did not come direct.

Sorry for his misunderstanding.

In this material world I have to account to my family for my lack of funds, personally, as already stated, I was remiss in selfishly pursuing job satisfaction rather than maximising my salary, no successful designs could be patented, all was copyrighted to my employer.

On reflection mortgages have been good investments over the years and hold no concerns for me at any age, not to be compared with the self employed nest egg that many have garnered, but helpful in the finance stakes.

Anything else anyone needs to know?

Regards

Norman

we must all agree with Norman or he gets very upset and leaves

"Evil prevails when good men remain silent". Norman they try, I say try, to put you down or silence you, you speak for many thousands who have been treated criminally, indeed in an evil fashion. "The truth shall set you free".

Chills - I don't think many people are remaining silent. I hope the truth does indeed set us free of this quagmire of idiocy . It reminds me of Goya's duelists fighting with sticks in the mud.

"How strange to nit pick the details" - well not really, when one is interested in the facts of the matter. Norman's choice to disregard fact and label his dissenters as "happies" only serves to reduce his case to nothing more than a ball of angst.

"An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation" - Gandhi

If one is prepared to fight cases in legalistic terms one must do so within a legalistic framework, and prepare you case based on facts. 

It's easy to admire Norman's conviction, but his belicose rants undermine his position. Given what technoape had to say about Norman's own "Non completion" of contract, it's difficult to determine whether he is a St George trying to slay a mighty dragon, or a bitter little chap who has been undone because of his own ignorance of Spanish law.

Norman, did you lose your property because you failed to complete on the contract?

I sincerely feel sorry for your position and understand why you are upset, but if that is the case then I am afraid the law (rightly or wrongly) is on the side of the builder. I am sure that you are now painfully aware of what you should have done.

 Dear All,

sorry if anyone was confused by my temporary absence, as explained elsewhere a computer "fault" kept my posts in "error".

whatever your mistaken views from your own experiences and your commitments to Spain through mortgages and lifestyle you will not affect the facts as honestly reported by those prepared to "tell it like it is".

Neither does it matter how silly you post you will not deter "Norman", which of course is my real name.

That said I enjoy reading of your various success stories in a country I find difficult to even visit now that I know the truth of it's regime's unacceptable behaviour.

If you genuinely care a fig for the lives of the citizens abused, you should stop supporting the regime and leave.

Many of you of course cannot, because you cannot sell your properties etc.

Human nature being what it is, many of you do not give a fig as long as you are not directly affected.

Such is life.

Regards

Norman

 And Norman (?) is now laughing up his sleeve as he simply posts to wind people up and gets a bite virtually every time.  I have had a PM from someone who likens him to a certain Belgian who used to post on here and many other sites.  It would explain his, often, fractured English and opinions.  But, really, to post some ridiculous comments like he does, does make one wonder if he has a hidden agenda.

I do feel sorry for all those who have come up foul with the Spanish system.  The ridiculous statements of the "regime" and the thousands of those who have been conned is really taking it a step too far.

I have also signed the various petitions alluded to on this, and other, sites as I feel there is a lot wrong in the Spanish legal system and agree that many lawyers are in the pockets of the builders and do not act in the best interests of the buyers.  

(Not that I have any knowledge whether Norman is the person alluded to in my PM but, on checking, he has used several phrases which are exactly the same as posts on other sites which have been pointed out to me.  If he is that person, then he is a very warped individual who, tragically, thinks he is very funny but is, in actual fact, a very sad person).

tangledman

in my case and I think Normans along with many others, the lawyer, agent and developer  worked together in the deception. In my case, we were told the apartment was being built to contract, but were alerted to the truth by a fellow buyer who went to visit the site. To cut a long and often repeated story short, our apartment was nearly two years late, had no BG and worst of all was half contract size. Despite this, any many plea's along the way to our lawyer that we were concerned all was not well, our lawyer and agent still advised us to complete!!  We had to work our way through the lies from all 3 parties until we changed lawyer and had our worst fears confirmed.  This was bad enough, but when we refused to complete and sued for the obvious and  very clear multiple breaches of contract, the court delayed the case for so long, that the developer, agent and lawyer went under, so our win in court shortly after was as good as useless apart from being mere creditors. Many have fallen foul of the dreadful legal/justice system in Spain that allows cases like mine and Normans to be the reality.

@Norman,

"As to Techno's personal plight as pm'd to me, they certainly did not come direct.

Sorry for his misunderstanding."

Okay! You've admitted that I didn't send you any PM's, at least that is one lie dealt with!

Now then, maybe you can share with me, and everyone else on here, my personally plight as you call it, PM'd to you via another 'mysterious' forum user who knows more about my life than I do.

I'm not asking you for names!

No! I'm asking you to merely cut and paste the text from these so called PM's and post the information to back up your slanderous insinuations!

Now, back to topic:

It seems that not everyone fully understands my views on ITV and their 'Property from Hell' programs, so I will spell it out!

All these programs do is to continue to stir things up, and yet do nothing to help those that they report on.

They point out how people have lost their life savings through, in some cases, no fault of their own, and now have nothing. However they are not going to give them any help or advise. Further, they are not going to give you, the viewers, any help and/or advice as to how to avoid such things happening!

No! The ITV just want to make non-factual programs by just highlighting a few cases, not backing it up with the full facts of each case, and then not help anybody avoid such in the future.

 Dear All,

the strange people just get stranger with their weird and wonderful conjectures.

Norman is just a simple Civil & Structural Engineer posting under his real name.

My only agenda was merely to recover my life savings that I have been cheated out of by the conspiracy Goodstitch has referred to, but unlike him I blame the lawyer as the main culprit, there would have been no contract if he had not signed it in his native language.

No money would have been lost if he had not passed it over out of the safety of his client account.

It is inconceivable to me that a lawyer would exchange contracts on a major purchase without completion finance being in place.

For this aspect alone I have charged him with actual insanity.

Thanks to EOS I now know that corruption and unbending regime arrogance is the norm in Spain.

Some who know about these things say that unbending arrogance is a national characteristic.

On a personal level I do not believe that Spain's behaviour is acceptable for a member of the common market.

Also I do not believe any Brit should be there encouraging that behaviour, even on holiday.

I believe that the whole world should boycott the country until it reforms.

As to the effect of this unacceptable behaviour on the victims including their own citizens, I believe it to be immeasurably immense.

Whether protest and boycott will ever have any effect or not I do not know.

Again, some who know from long experience say not and to live in Spain you just have to accept them as they are.

I can assure everyone, as best this medium allows, that I am not anyone else, I post nowhere else and I don't have a fraction of the views ascribed to me.

As to Techno's plight it is no different to Bobaol's, as reported, his Spanish investments have halved in value, if he could actually sell them at all.

As to my proposed luxury penthouse holiday complex apartment, one is currently for sale fully furnished for a sum equivalent to my lost deposit of 30%.

That is the market and that is life, I am sorry for the mental anguish this has caused so many of you, it seems that some have "flipped" over it.

I am even sorry that I have an "old soldier's" prejudice of men who must look at their own image. I will try to restrain it.

Regards

Norman

TechNoape

To some degree you are spot on! Negative stuff and all the things that go wrong in life make 'good' TV programmes and yes nothing good ever comes out of it.

However, try making a good TV programme on the positives and sucesses to come out of the Spanish property market (>2004  )  ...............

It would be a very short programme wouldn't it !

 Also I do not believe any Brit should be there encouraging that behaviour, even on holiday.

I believe that the whole world should boycott the country until it reforms.

You may find this slightly Ironic Norman but..............99.9% of Brits live in Spain because they disagree with the way the UK is Run now and the standards it seems to have dropped to?!

As an old soldier (and i am not digressing, Norman raised the subject that we shouldn't live anywhere that has such lapse laws) how do you feel about people marching through the Capital burning poppies with placards with "behead the British soldiers" on?

I think the question is how can you live in a country that allows open treason????

I will answer this for you,we choose Spain because a large percentage of us can ignore the bad side, the same as you can watch extremists burn the National flag......you choose to ignore it?!

If that is deemed as estate agent speak or bullying then so be it.....at least when i lived in the UK i was proud to do so.

  Dear All,

the strange people just get stranger with their weird and wonderful conjectures.

Norman is just a simple Civil & Structural Engineer posting under his real name.

Still not convinced, I'm afraid.  My PM does make a compelling argument as to your true identity.  However, I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

My only agenda was merely to recover my life savings that I have been cheated out of by the conspiracy Goodstitch has referred to, but unlike him I blame the lawyer as the main culprit, there would have been no contract if he had not signed it in his native language.

No money would have been lost if he had not passed it over out of the safety of his client account.

It is inconceivable to me that a lawyer would exchange contracts on a major purchase without completion finance being in place.

For this aspect alone I have charged him with actual insanity.

Thanks to EOS I now know that corruption and unbending regime arrogance is the norm in Spain.

Some who know about these things say that unbending arrogance is a national characteristic.

OK. you have come across an unscrupulous lawyer.  All the best to you on taking them to task.  However, insanity?  Have you actually picked the right word there?

On a personal level I do not believe that Spain's behaviour is acceptable for a member of the common market.

Also I do not believe any Brit should be there encouraging that behaviour, even on holiday.

I believe that the whole world should boycott the country until it reforms.

And that's where reality takes a sharp turn.  If that were the case, poor old Greece, Cyprus, Italy and many others would be off the holiday list.  Sorry but I do believe you have totally lost it there.  I am also not going to boycott UK with the points that Georgia brings out, either.

As to the effect of this unacceptable behaviour on the victims including their own citizens, I believe it to be immeasurably immense.

Whether protest and boycott will ever have any effect or not I do not know.

Again, some who know from long experience say not and to live in Spain you just have to accept them as they are.

Wrong again.  The system is changing hence many of the local mayors now serving rather long stretches at His Majesty's Pleasure.  To tar the entire legal system in this way is immensely insulting to those who are trying to change things.

I can assure everyone, as best this medium allows, that I am not anyone else, I post nowhere else and I don't have a fraction of the views ascribed to me.

Hmmm.  Let's skip that one.

As to Techno's plight it is no different to Bobaol's, as reported, his Spanish investments have halved in value, if he could actually sell them at all.

Sorry to spoil your day but, firstly, my flat is rented out on a long term basis.  I have had a few offers but, as I only paid £57.000 (less taxes) for it in the first place, I will consider my best options.  And why would I want to sell my current home?  OK, I bought it when prices were inflated but it's mine.  We live in it and are extremely happy, thank you very much, especially as we have lovely neighbours and it's really great not to hear the moans and see the miserable looks on peoples faces as we did in UK.  (Must admit, a bit chilly at the mo).  The UK market is not exactly bubbling at the moment with average prices dropping £6,000 in November alone.  Banks are not lending but, if they do consider you, they are asking for whopping deposits.  £30,000 deposit on a £140,000 property puts them out of the reach of many first time buyers who really are the driving force in the property market.  

As to my proposed luxury penthouse holiday complex apartment, one is currently for sale fully furnished for a sum equivalent to my lost deposit of 30%.

So you also made the mistake of buying at the price peak.  That's life, I'm afraid.  If you had wanted it for a home instead of a holiday retreat then the prices would not worry you so much, much as they don't bother me.  Hopefully I will have another 15 years or so before that will start worrying me.

That is the market and that is life, I am sorry for the mental anguish this has caused so many of you, it seems that some have "flipped" over it.

No anguish whatsoever, Norman.  I must admit, it's only because my nice neighbour allows me to log on to this broadband wi-fi that I even bother to come on and post.  Rest assured, I lose no sleep over this at all.

I am even sorry that I have an "old soldier's" prejudice of men who must look at their own image. I will try to restrain it.

Regards

Norman

@Norman,

"As to Techno's plight it is no different to Bobaol's, as reported, his Spanish investments have halved in value, if he could actually sell them at all."

Exactly who reported what to you about my Spanish Investments?

I have gone on record about what property I purchased and when, and also that in both circumstances, both properties were purchased well below the 2007 'bubble' highs.

Consequently I could sell both properties right now, and not make a loss, however I agree that I won't make a gain! That said, one properties was purchased, again as previously stated, as a long term investment and one as a lifestyle change, as I now live in Spain.

So who's the looser here Norman? Not me!

@Philmel

"However, try making a good TV programme on the positives and successes to come out of the Spanish property market (>2004  )  ..............."

It would be a longer programme than most people would think, cut short by the World Wide recession, started by the collapse of the sub-prime market in America, that led to the downfall of the housing market across Europe.

Just take a look at the Housing market in Ireland, and also keep a close eye on the UK!

 

 Dear All,

It seems that there are not many figs around.

the bad can be ignored even if it includes casting people out of their own homes at gun point and demolishing their homes in front of them.

For what exactly? to restore prime agricultural land to useful production?

Of course not, what could you economically produce on this scrub.

No we are just regime bully boys "doing our thing".

Let the victims live on in garages and wooden sheds now that we have taught them a lesson.

Can you really live with that and compare to a bit of yob behaviour or the rantings of extremists who are careful not to overstep the mark and risk jail.

What sort of conscience is required to do that, or are we back to "heads in sand".

Norman or "whoever Bobaol wants me to be" could not.

As to the self delusion on property values just down the road from "Casares del Sol", well????????????

Join the boycott, it is the only way you will force any change.

Regards

Norman