BANK GUARANTEES PETITION - LEY 57/68

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21 Oct 2010 16:17 by goodstich44 Star rating in northampton. 1652 posts Send private message

ads

that's the reality sadly. How many people actually get their money back?.  That's the only measure of real justice.

As you know, after years of fighting,  we  won on a clear case of breach of contract, but have been denied justice thanks to court delays, and that's despite also having an embargo in our favour granted by the courts two years before Aifos even  went bust!

We were never given a BG by Aifos, and our money was clearly never kept in any safe account by anyone, but our lawyer who won the case against Aifos on breach of contract, says there is no point in going down the ley 57/58 route for justice as we won't win.

So where does that  leave us?.  Do we sit back as non preffered creditors and wait 5 years or more to get some possible scraps?, or do we go against our lawyers advice and start all over again with an action against the bank? 

Not much of a choice is it?

 

 





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22 Oct 2010 07:29 by mariadecastro Star rating in Algeciras (Cadiz). 9062 posts Send private message

Legal Questions? Speak to Maria Direct

The Bank did not appeal the Decission in Madrid so is paying back.

If you can show what  Bank account your money was deposited and this is an account the Bank with minimum due diligence should have known was for advanced off plan deposits... I would certainly ask the Bank for liabilities out fo 1.2 of Law 57/68.

Any person representing you in conveyancing also had a proffessional duty regarding the existence of the legally required Guarantees.

 

 



_______________________

Maria L. de Castro, JD, MA

Lawyer

Director www.costaluzlawyers.es

El blog de Maria



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22 Oct 2010 11:31 by goodstich44 Star rating in northampton. 1652 posts Send private message

maria

the first company who represented us for conveyancing were called 'UK conveyancing'  and went bust some time ago. The lady who ran this shambles 'Lesley Alberici'  is the subject of many posts regarding wrong doings.

As soon as we paid our deposit on a property at ' Balcones de riviera'  we were transfered  by UK conveyancing to the lawyers in Spain called GV&A . Balcones de riviera never even had a building licence, despite lies from UK conveyancing and our UK agent OVP, (also gone bust) saying it was 'knee high' in the build.  When the truth came out we were transfered to development 'Angel de Miraflores'  and after some time  our lawyer GV&A and OVP advised us to complete despite no BG, no LFO and several large breaches of contract, the worst three of which were  1- A nearly two year late build time. 2- Aifos sold our apartment by mistake? 3- The one they then offered was half contract size with no discount offered. I told GV&A that I though we would be mad to complete, and they wrote back saying 'how dare I call their advice mad!'  At that point I realised we were clearly set up by several parties working together to cheat us. We then changed to our current lawyer who confirmed our worst thoughts, and after a long fight won our case for breach of contract. That should have been end of story had delays in the hearing date not been so bad that Aifos went bust in the meantime, and all we are now is distant creditors.

I feel I would like to take action under law 57/58, but I just  don't know if I have the stomach for more expense and years more fighting for justice when nobody can say for sure if we will get our money back, however clear our case is, even if we win?

Thanks again for all the help and good advice. I realise it's a gamble that I have to decide if I think is worth taking, against my current lawyer's advice.





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22 Oct 2010 15:27 by Faro Star rating in London. 1139 posts Send private message

Lesley Alberci - UK Conveyancing - Ocean View Properies - now there's name from the past and many lost their life savings with this bunch.

Lesley Alberici is an English solicitor and although I don't believe she currently holds a practising certificate she still remains on the roll. But a real rogue lawyer and her and her partners were regularly appearing before disciplinary committees for all kinds of fraud.

The idea was they sold you the best of 2 worlds - an English lawyer and a Spanish lawyer. Lesley/UK conveyancing would bring you to private contract and then pass the file to GVA and they would represent you completion. Of course most never goit to completion! Lesley/OVP knew every scam in the book and would try to collect all VAT due upfront through OVP. Deposits were paid to OVP and some not passed onto developer.

Problem was when it all went wrong everyone started blaming each other and I guess GVA were advising clients to make the best of things than the alternative which was litigation for years. There was vasts amounts of missing documentation and I thing Deloittes were the liquidators of OVP but it was a nightmare scenario.

This is a complete can of worms.

But good luck with whatever you decide!





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22 Oct 2010 15:32 by ads Star rating. 3349 posts Send private message

What are the implications of her remaining on the roll Faro, does this mean that she can practice if she so desires? With this chequered history how can she still remain on the roll?

 



This message was last edited by ads on 22/10/2010.



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22 Oct 2010 16:31 by Faro Star rating in London. 1139 posts Send private message

I've just had a quick look at her file and Lesley Alberici is still on the role but she does not hold a practising certicate. Her file shows there are findings and orders against her.

This is where it all gets a bit messy because there have/are been 3 bodies involved Legal Complaints Commission, Legal Ombudsman and Solicitors Regulation Authority and then complaints go before the SDT (Solicitors Disciplinary Tribunal). Things like negligence and fraud need to be considered before she might get struck off.

An English solicitor to obtain a practising certificate must have in place GBP2m in professional indemnity. Lesley would be uninsurable and no insurance company would touch her with a barge pole for any premium!

Being on the role gives her some benefits but she must describe herself a a "non-practising solicitor". She would receive a copy of the Gazette!

I have a 29 page pdf doc I could post but I don't know how.

Anyone involved with Lesley/Conveyancing UK should at least file complaints.

To complain about your solicitor,

  • visit  www.legalcomplaints.org.uk
  • or call the helpline on 0845 608 6565             0845 608 6565    
  • Monday to Friday 9am to 5pm. Calls are charged at local rates.




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22 Oct 2010 16:48 by ads Star rating. 3349 posts Send private message

Thanks Faro.

  Are there similar organsiations in Spain?





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22 Oct 2010 17:10 by Faro Star rating in London. 1139 posts Send private message

Starting point would be to file a complaint with the appropriate colegio involving a professional and there are also consumer associations/ombudsman etc

Sometimes there are procedures to be followed and also best to file complaints in Spanish.

Some days I wonder why more victims have not resorted to more direct means of retribution particularly so when developers and rogue whatever are living in their big houses and driving their big cars when we all know where they got their money. I don't know how they live with themselves knowing the misery they have caused so many.

example

extracted every penny they could from development company now will not put right defects or pay community fees on unsold units.

or

took deposits and built nothing!

Years ago Ocean View Properties took buyers onto a site which was to have sea views and when someone quite rightly pointed out there was a hill infront so no sea view. OVP rep said don't worry we'll easily move that and buyer believed them. I mean who do you blame?

All this with Lesley Alberici & OVP goes back 8 years ago with many of these contracts signed in 2002 to 2003 and the legal wranglings are still going on?

This was the days of the great landrush - the feeling was there simply would not be enough property to meet demand - it was crazy times and you could take deposits on any building idea - you did not even need to own land or have planning permission!!!

Goodstitch - when exactly did you sign on the dotted line? 





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22 Oct 2010 17:46 by ads Star rating. 3349 posts Send private message

Good lawyers should be taking the responsibility for their clients themselves and report back complaints of this nature to the relevant colegio, consumer associations, ombudsman...... it's not good enough to keep passing the buck back to the clients as many are in ignorant bliss as to how to complain, especially given the language difficulties.

Come on good  lawyers, step up to the mark please and report back your findings. You are as affected by these issues as are we.

We MUST stop these instances of continued abuse that Faro has identified (including court delays) and recognise that the justice system can play its part in making these people truly accountable for their abuses, but only if we get our lawyers to complain en masse in order to establish a workable and effective system of justice.

In a civilised society we shouldn't have to take affairs into our own hands (direct means of retribution).......

 





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22 Oct 2010 18:54 by goodstich44 Star rating in northampton. 1652 posts Send private message

Faro

yes, you are smack on about the details of that whole bunch of scum. We signed on the dotted line in 2002,  thinking we had a UK lawyer folowed by a Spanish lawyer specialising in Spanish property on our case who would (by the integrity of the proffesion)  look after our interests. We didn't trust the agents or developers anymore than anyone would, but the lawyers? yes we did trust them sadly. I think the only possible chance we have now is a case against the bank under law 57/58?

Our lawyer thinks we will get something as creditors one day, but  if, how much, and when?, is no clearer now than when we 'won' our case. It's a constant waiting for crumbs situation for many of  the victims, while the crooks carry on their high life often untouched by the (so called?)  justice system.





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22 Oct 2010 19:21 by Faro Star rating in London. 1139 posts Send private message

Goodstich44

Faro sees all from his lighthouse!

I shall dedicate a chapter of my book to you and your long struggle and I think in a previous thread did you not promise us all a drink someday when you do get back your money?

I for one support you in telling your story and all others who do likewise as what has happened must not be brushed under the carpet. As you know only too well there are many who dislike that we won't let sleeping dogs lie - particularly those wanting to revive the Spanish property market.

Anyway have a good w/e.





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22 Oct 2010 19:28 by Suzie Star rating in England. 121 posts Send private message

Goodstitch -  I really want you & all of us who are drowning in this mire, including myself, to get our money back.  But be aware of the huge gamble you are taking if you go down this route.  Taking into account all the fees you have already paid over the years, you could end up finally having to pay out more than you are actually claiming, if you were to lose.  Not only would you still have to pay your own legal fees but also those of the other side.  I'm not scaremongering here but really hope that whichever lawyer anyone chooses to take this action are many fully aware - by the lawyer - of the unique circumstances of this one  ruling from Madrid.  The full details of this case should be taken into account before making a decision.

Both the developer & the off-plan purchaser were known personally to this bank being discussed.  In fact, the same bank financed the funds to the 'buyer' for this deal.  Hardly the same circumstances as the majority of us.

As I said, I'm not trying to put a spanner in the works.  I'm just anxious for anyone who grabs at this, without carefully weighing up all the facts & the risk involved. 





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22 Oct 2010 20:33 by mariadecastro Star rating in Algeciras (Cadiz). 9062 posts Send private message

Legal Questions? Speak to Maria Direct

 Of course I agree with Suzanne that every action against Bank out of provision 1.2 of LAw 57/68 deserves careful individual and specific study, investigation and a good level of technique by the lawyers using it.



_______________________

Maria L. de Castro, JD, MA

Lawyer

Director www.costaluzlawyers.es

El blog de Maria



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22 Oct 2010 22:43 by goodstich44 Star rating in northampton. 1652 posts Send private message

Suzie

I know exactly what you are saying, and I feel the same way, which is why i'm unlikely to take that route even though in theory I should have a strong case. How many are in similar 'catch22' situation?  Damned if you do, damned if you don't!!.  I think the only way taking action would be viable would be if we could feel confident that those in positions of granting justice to those clearly in the right could be trusted to do so.





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22 Oct 2010 23:16 by ads Star rating. 3349 posts Send private message

I understand and can relate to all your concerns.

Which is why it's imperative that everyone come together and identify all these facts in detail to present to the powers that be, whether this be the Spanish government, our government,  the EU, the court of human rights, whatever..

How bad does this have to get before you all realise that  EVERYONE needs to present these facts in unison........ together.

And this is where you tell me that the powers that be won't do a thing..........  well we have to make our evidence undeniable, detailed, succinct, etc etc so that they can't find any excuse to ignore it.

And Keith's petition is a great vehicle to bring together this evidence.

Even if you have grave doubts regarding the chances for success on this, we still have to get the evidence together, and I can't stress the importance of this sufficiently.

Please everyone provide the evidence.





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25 Oct 2010 15:47 by mariadecastro Star rating in Algeciras (Cadiz). 9062 posts Send private message

Legal Questions? Speak to Maria Direct

As an addittion, of course, there is always an action to whoever acted on your behalf as conveyancer linked to the lack of Bank Guarantee.

We do think it is more according to Law 57/68 to proceed against the Banks first. Of course, negligencies for any other actor, who, being under professional care of duty regarding the existence of Bank Guarantees proves not to have secured all the necessary avenues, is open. Of course it is open.

We need to be accountable as proffessional people: fully accountable. How can be prosper and progress as a society otherwise?

Best wishes to you all,

Maria



_______________________

Maria L. de Castro, JD, MA

Lawyer

Director www.costaluzlawyers.es

El blog de Maria



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25 Oct 2010 17:03 by Faro Star rating in London. 1139 posts Send private message

Maria

Are you saying people should consider claiming damages from appointed lawyer for failing to secure bank guarantee?

My understanding is very few Spanish lawyers (if any) and not even the ambulance chasers will take on cases against their so called colleagues.

 





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09 Dec 2010 19:21 by ads Star rating. 3349 posts Send private message

Just picked up on this regarding the Banks, and felt obliged to pass it on.

Georgia has just identified the following (from the thread titled Habitation licence required for re-sale property) with regard to  Banks doing deals

"The banks are the biggest criminals in Spain and have their own rules.

At one point over the last 3-4 years they have all asked me to work with them and i must say they are the most unrealistic,disorganised and unprofesional outfits i have ever seen.

I suppose if they wanted to sell you a property and you agreed to finance it through them(as they want you to) and use their legal team they could hide the issues quite simply from an unsuspecting buyer.

I don't think,(well i know) that the banks have any scruples when trying to liquidise their assets.

We have to have 8 different certificates or bills from Vendors or we simply refuse to list them as we know that everybody will be wasting their time and it will not even get to notary, even if any of the parties do not care too much, the lawyers won't do it!!

I also know several banks selling (or trying to) property that is illegal in some way........"

 

So If ever there is a case to make Banks accountable for their malpractices, and demand some form of controls on their actions, then we should do so. And quickly.

Keith is so right to suggest this within his petition relating to Bank Guarantees. (Pleeeeease everyone, support him). www.bankguaranteesinspain.com

 





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10 Dec 2010 08:59 by ads Star rating. 3349 posts Send private message

Regarding the banks malpractices and lack of controls within the banking and building sectors I would like to say to Maria and all the good lawyers out there to gather and present your own evidence which will be crucial to any campaign to effect reform from within. It is no longer credible to continue regardless in the hope that investors will return to the market place, whether through deals or not,  given the fact that most people are now sadly aware and extremely cautious of the corruption, malpractice and lack of controls and consumer protection within all sectors in Spain, whether they be banking, building,or  legal (administration). You have to face up to the fact that Spain has in the main lost the trust from investors, and your government and powers that be will need to correct the underlying problems and call a halt to the ongoing abuses before many will return to  the market place.

 





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13 Dec 2010 19:46 by rosegreen Star rating. 52 posts Send private message

Hi Maria,

Delighted to report that our lawyer has just informed us that our deposit/legal fees and interest up to time of court case are now in the lawyers bank account.  Apparently interest accrued since the case first came to court nearly two and a half years ago will come later.  I hope this gives hope to others who are awaiting return of  deposits.  We ae absolutely thrilled as we often thought this day would never come.





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