Bank Repossessions Again

To Maria.  

You are in the legal profession that much we do know so do all your associates in and around your chosen area and office know whats happening regarding these complaints about Spain,  do you know other members of your profession in many parts of Spain that also know, and have complained about these legal, or is it illegal goings on.

If this is as it seems to look like that all of Spain's legal system is doing the same , pretty much corrupt, then what hope is there for buyers,  or anyone else who needs the Spanish legal system for that matter, I personally have never had any problems buying or selling in Spain, but lets be honest it does seem like everybody else has massive problems.

All the talking in the world sometimes never sorts out problems (Don't mention Brexit) but it looks like that Spain doesn't want to change, why not if it's this bad, we keep hearing about how powerful the EU is with it's members on laws and such like, have they intervened?

Dear Baz1946:

The Spanish system of justice has its flaws, like all the systems of justice in the world, but it is not a corrupt system and, in relation to off plan purchases, has proved to be strong in its punishment to the banks.

Pretty much what I expected in an answer.

I’m confused Maria.

I thought the SC have already changed the doctrine that they have produced? Is this not correct?

Ads,

Not, it has not. Supreme Court is defending that in some cases, some guarantors were unable to know on their obligations. This has a strong contra-defense in the fact that the Ministerial Order that developed Law 57/68 made contracts available to guarantors so they could know about the content of their contractual commitment with buyers.  Stil, it is not a change of doctrine, which I do hope it will not happen. 

 What is desirable is that the lawyers who are defending these  cases at Appeal and  Supreme Court stages continue to present the arguments in favor of the buyer contained in the law and in the existing judicial doctrine.  We are, of course, on it. I'm sure the rest of lawyers in Spain, are conscious and fighting for this too.

Gett8ng a little off thread here.

It was originally about the selfish and slightly harsh practices that banks use when repossessing properties, pertaining to outstanding debts and not about off plan purchases.

The system may not be corrupt but it’s extremely poor practice by the banks and often by the lawyers acting for them.

When you corrupt someone, you convince them to do something wrong or even illegal. If you talk your little brother into stealing cookies from the cookie jar, you're corrupting him. Something corrupt is rotten, spoiled, or out of commission, like a file that makes your computer crash. A corrupt person — a criminal, a crook, or a cookie thief —**** brings society down with immoral and dishonest behavior. **** Corrupt goes back to the Latin roots cor-, "altogether," and rumpere, "break."

Well considering that Spanish banks have been reported on this very site doing as much as they can to avoid paying out the correct and legal dues to people who have had problems, lawyers are not exactly telling new buyers about many hidden costs,  it's also been reported on here that some lawyers that buyers employed vanished with the buyers deposit, estate agents have done the same who were recommended by the banks and lawyers, hard to see how the word corrupt is used in the wrong context.

But I have to say that with all my dealings in Spain not once have I dealt with any corrupt lawyers or banks.

There are and have been, undoubtedly corrupt individual politicians and individual council members who are prepared to exploit both the public and the system but I would suggest that professions are not so much as corrupt but do seriously utilise sharp business practice by choosing their own interpretation of a Country’s laws.

I would suggest many of the thousands of home buyers don’t have problems as you report but this is not to say that the continued sharp practices of many banks and some lawyers does not have a negative effect on many holiday home owners

From a justice perspective, a major problem appears to be the way that Banks are becoming increasingly adept at manipulating flaws and loopholes in the system, (alongside the use of civil codes) whilst frequently exploiting the system of delays to their advantage. So perhaps it could be argued that they have been exploiting a system in dire need of high level review.

The Banks ploys are frequently manipulative and costly to challenge, given their tactic to proliferate appeals at every eventuality, in full knowledge that many individuals will be denied return of monies for increasingly lengthy periods of time, whilst in the main having to meet all associated interim  costs ( not to mention suffer stress associated with prolonged litigation!) 

They have also recognised that by providing Avals ( promise to pay) to the courts at point of ruling in favour of the claimant, they will not be subjected to accruing interest beyond the point of aval, whilst they continue with their appeals with intent to create elements of doubt that in turn can deny judicial awards of costs.....so they have little to lose by such manipulative ploys.

In terms of debts owed by the Banks, they also exploit the fact that the Bank of Spain appear to do little to regulate their behaviour or make them compliant with their mission statements. 

Which then begs the question, do Banks purposeful bad and unethical intent of this nature need to be recognised by the judiciary at the highest level?

Might this form of purposeful bad intent now be considered a form of corrupt unethical ploy which has the potential to sadly undermine the system of justice in Spain, especially if accompanying protectionist elements that challenge the rule of law are not closely monitored? 

These are without doubt sensitive issues to debate, but important nevertheless, given the need to review the impacts of Banks behaviour from a far wider perspective. 

And certainly not easy to recognise, given a highly complex system of justice with loopholes and civil codes difficult to comprehend, but all of which appear to be increasingly  exploited at every opportunity,  by those institutions that can afford to do so.....

Ads most of what you say is true and accurate. But the Spanish don’t see themselves and their systems as corrupt or unjust. It’s just their way and their culture. They are happy and content with the general ‘’could not care less attitude’’ of the nation and everyone in the legal professions and banking. If a few expats get a raw deal so what? They are only foreigners and a meal ticket, if they don’t like it go back to wherever they came from.

Your fighting a one woman crusade with zero support other than lip service.

Dear Kavanagh:

With all my personal respect, I cannot agree with your words. There are wonderful professionals in Spain striving for a better system.

M

Much depends upon those in a position of high authority to respond to sincerely held concerns both at the citizen AND  professional levels, and to find an effective way through this that pays due respect to the rule of law and ethical compliance, so necessary when areas of the existing system are being exploited in this manner. 

For instance how is bad intent and non compliance interpreted in law and what evidence would this rely upon? Do for instance the SC have sufficient evidence to substantiate such behaviour and has there been any direct reference to this in their current doctrine?

Put in large amounts of money,  people that live in another country, and what do you get?

Corruption

Chrissie1

But it is those in a position of high authority that have taught and promoted this negligent fraudulent way of life.

When you think about it who do those in high authority answer to?

Sadly, that is the problem, they answer to no one and never have as many of them created the constitution and the laws which have been loosely followed for some time.

Lack of sensible and strong regulation leads professions to bend rules to their own needs and while MARIA is correct that many of the recent generations are and will fight to change things.

Change and respect for others, not family,  can be very slow in developing in Spain.

Ads is also correct, when you cannot be charged with perjury in a Spanish Court and 

When you may probably have to pay your own costs even if you win a substantial amount of any claim

What possible reason is there for any bank or dodgy developer NOT to try every delaying tactic under the sun whilst defending a claim that can get NO worse than simply losing.

Chaos, lack of law and enforcement, lack of regulation, is all paradise to the high authority and so called professionals’. It creates a do as you like society with no responsibility. Why would those in power benefiting from this culture want to change it?

Surely when you cannot be charged with perjury in a Spanish Court, it says it all.

The key legal precept is article 24.2 of the Spanish Constitution that states, inter alia, the following: “…Likewise, all persons have the right to…no make self-incriminating statements…to not declare themselves guilty.”

But make no mistake as to who can lie in Court: witnesses will be prosecuted if they do so for ‘false testimony’ (falso testimonio), a charge that carries prison terms. Also, you can be charged with falsely reporting a crime if you employ deceit (denuncia falsa) and likewise, be convicted of a crime.

In everyday judicial practice, the above distinction can be easily noted: claimants and defendants are not required to give their statements under oath whereas witnesses will have been previously sworn (warned too).

In my opinion, creating two types of liars (those who are allowed to and those who aren’t) causes Court cases to become protracted because defendants will be less prone to admit liability, even if wrongdoing is obvious, just because there are no legal consequences to prevaricating.

Well now I was surely reprimanded when I said they were corrupt....Perhaps not 'Corrupt' then...Just BENT as a nine bob note.

I agree Baz, Spain is not alone or unique in its ways, there is Somalia, Syria and Afghanistan. 

It has also been quite rightly pointed out on this thread that there are wonderful professionals in Spain striving for a better system. I will let you know if I ever meet one.