Empadronamiento

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21 Oct 2015 10:26 by chesneyville Star rating. 83 posts Send private message

If you own a property in Spain which you only use for holidays can you obtain an empadronamiento certificate or do you have to be resident in Spain. 

Hopefully someone can advise.

Thanks





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22 Oct 2015 10:05 by theline Star rating. 83 posts Send private message

You could get an empadronamiento certificate. However, this should really only be obtained if you are actually living there. It is an indicator to the Hacienda that you are resident in Spain, which could lead to problems later when you submit your non-resident tax returns.





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22 Oct 2015 17:11 by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5247 posts Send private message

It seems to depend on where you try to register.    Some town halls will accept anyone who can show they have a residence in their town.  My son and daughter-in-law have been on the padron for years, although they only have a holiday home in Spain.  They signed on so they can enjoy the discounts on their IBI etc.

 

In the 25 plus years I have ben resident in Spain I have never heard that Hacienda liaise with the town halls.  If they did thousands of holiday home owners would have been shouting from the roof tops for years!  Certainly I have never had any problems when I have submitted my son’s non-resident tax returns.





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23 Oct 2015 14:24 by theline Star rating. 83 posts Send private message

johnx, I expect most holiday home owners aren't on the local padron. Why would they if it is a second home, only used for holidays?

Regarding town halls liasing with Hacienda. I don't know for sure, but I don't think you are right here. Over the last few years I have heard of a few cases (particularly in and around the Campo de Gibraltar, due to the high numbers of people abusing the tax system) where the Hacienda have sent letters to people asking them to submit tax returns for the previous 4 years or prove that they haven't been resident for this period. Whilst there is no disclosure given on how they have obtained information about the person living there, being on the padron is one of the commonly cited give-away signs (along with high utility bills usage, car registration and bank account usage).

Of course, if you are really non-resident, you should hopefully be able to prove this without too much difficulty. Just make sure you keep hold of any documentation you might need to prove this (e.g. receipts of flights to and from Spain, UK payslips etc).





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23 Oct 2015 15:55 by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1755 posts Send private message

Our town hall has previously asked that everyone registers on the padron as they all pay local taxes and it helps them get the services right

theline

I wish the hacienda would work and put more pressure on town halls to investigate residents who do not pay tax or do not do a tax return - there are far too many illegals around who at the end of the day cost us all money (or at least those who do or have paid taxes). The govt could earn a fortune in back taxes and fines if they invested in a big investigation . How diffcult would it be as all households have bills and they must get the money from somewhere so simply ask them to prove how they got the money to pay the bills

 

 


This message was last edited by Tadd1966 on 23/10/2015.

_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”



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23 Oct 2015 16:41 by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5247 posts Send private message

I suspect that those who do not pay the taxes they should are almost certainly not property owners, thus the town hall would not know they are living here.  Hacienda has much more efficient ways of doing that, it is just that they do not seem to exercise their powers.  In any case whilst not 100% legal, I know there are those who believe wrongly that declaring and paying tax on their income to HMRC (i.e. on their OAP and private pension etc) relieves them of the obligation to make the declaration in Spain. So they at least probably pay tax somewhere.

Unless they swoop big time of those not making their 720 declarations,  ( within four years from the start of the obligation ) then many may escape.  It is estimated that only about 5% of those who should have made that declaration did so, that is a hell of a lot of money, in fines, waiting to be collected.  We will of course remember the Spanish national who has been fined 460,000€ for failing to declare his bank holding in Switzerland of 350,000€.  Lets hope Hacienda get on with it.





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23 Oct 2015 17:51 by floella Star rating in SE Spain. 789 posts Send private message

 Ayuntamientos, in my part of Spain, openly welcome all property owners, permanent or not, to sign on the padron because every person listed = more money for local services from regional Government for them. 

Have also to agree with Tadd 1966  ( must be first ) wink lol on his posting re investigating those who should but don't pay taxes here. But guess with out people pointing the finger it will never happen.

 

 





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23 Oct 2015 17:57 by scubamike Star rating in Murcia province . 220 posts Send private message

scubamike´s avatar

I am sure that Hacienda are fully aware of the number of ex pats living in Spain and not paying their taxes However I have often wondered if they turn a blind eye Most ex pats spend most or all of their pensions in Spain A mass exodus could have a dramatic effect on some local economies 





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23 Oct 2015 20:45 by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1755 posts Send private message

johnzx

I suspect that those who do not pay the taxes they should are almost certainly not property owners,

Sorry to be blunt but do you really believe this? If you do you must be living in cloud cuckoo landsurprise

I certainly know a lot of people (not just in my area) who are property owners who do not pay taxes living here of penisonable age and those who are not of pensionable age doing everything including taxi runs,window cleaning, building works, key holding, bar work etc etc etc and not just ex pats

 



_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”



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23 Oct 2015 20:59 by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5247 posts Send private message

I certainly know a lot of people (not just in my area) who are property owners who do not pay taxes living here of pensionable age and those who are not of pensionable age doing everything including taxi runs,window cleaning, building works, key holding, bar work etc etc etc and not just ex pats

As you know so many and expect the town hall to do the decent thing by reporting cheats to Hacienda, why don’t you do it for them?





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23 Oct 2015 21:55 by floella Star rating in SE Spain. 789 posts Send private message

Johnzx, have to agree...again !!! with Tadd1966 those we know who are scamming the system in Spain are property owners living here full time.

Takes a certain sort of person to become an informer, as having worked in law enforcement you are fully aware, and for 99% of us it is a no go.  We just hope the culprits slip themselves up.

The evidence is all there should the hacienda bother to investigate. DWP aren't going to tell all the time they are collecting taxes from a known resident living in another country.





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24 Oct 2015 09:41 by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1755 posts Send private message

johnzx

If there was system in Spain where I could report them anon I prorbably would

I agree with floella the evidence is there and easy to gather all it takes is a bit of effort the rewards vs the costs would be vast 

We have debated this before andit was clear peopel do not like snitching on these illegals



_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”



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24 Oct 2015 10:16 by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5247 posts Send private message

Quote   If there was system in Spain where I could report them anon I probably would.  I agree with floella the evidence is there and easy to gather all it takes is a bit of effort the rewards vs the costs would be vast We have debated this before and it was clear people do not like snitching on these illegals

You can inform Hacienda, anonymously if that’s what you choose,  without making a formal denuncia, just bring it to the attention of Hacienda by letter, email etc..  I assume from what you say, whilst complaining here about tax dodgers stealing from us, you have never actually done or even tried to do anything to help society prevent such fraud.      I had not understood, from your forthright posts,  that you would shrink away from doing your civic duty, as you seem to claim, by seeking to hide away in anonymity.   Not bring such facts to the notice of authority is tantamount to aiding and abetting the dishonest who seek to steal from all of us.     Whilst I can understand the timidly of some to do their duty, I am surprised one would then have the courage to admit it here, albeit anonymously.

As for 'snitching'  that is a somewhat naïve idea which was only appropriate in the schoolyard. In the UK, not sure about Spain but it is probably the same “Everyone has a civic duty to help police officers prevent crime and catch offenders.”  The public pay the police and other law enforcement agencies to protect us, it is naive if we then think it is fine to do nothing to assist those forces in doing the job we pay them to do.

We all have to pay our taxes to run our services, anyone who does not pay by fraud is stealing from each of us, and we all have therefore to pay more. Anyone who does not do his/her civic duty to help prevent crime ‘failure to pay taxes’ is protecting the dishonest at the expense of the honest.   Rather like allowing someone to steal from others, and doing nothing: 'Walking passed on the other side of the road’.

 

"No man is an island entire of itself; every man

is a piece of the continent, a part of the main;

if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe

is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as

well as any manner of thy friends or of thine

own were; any man's death diminishes me,

because I am involved in mankind.

And therefore never send to know for whom

the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.

 

MEDITATION XVII

Devotions upon Emergent Occasions

John Donne


This message was last edited by johnzx on 24/10/2015.



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24 Oct 2015 11:04 by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1755 posts Send private message

Johnzx

You should never assume anything

 I assume from what you say, whilst complaining here about tax dodgers stealing from us, you have never actually done or even tried to do anything to help society prevent such fraud. 

I agree with you about snitching but sadly many will not do it and too many turn a blind eye to many crimes petty or not for many reasons and although snithcing belongs in the school playgorund the reality is it far more prevalent and is with many for life (look back at the many responses we had last tiem thsi was debated)

I have tried contacting the local town hall (if I recall this was one of your pieces of advice which did not work at our town hall), the police and the hacienda by email and phone and the responses I got were more or less the same and I would have to give my details (they did say they would keep them anon but the forms they sent simply could not have guaranteed this)

I disagree with your statement of

 Not bring such facts to the notice of authority is tantamount to aiding and abetting............  

Again a topic we have debated on here before ** EDITED **

Once again we are drifting...................................wink

 


This message was last edited by eos_moderators on 24/10/2015 15:45:00.

_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”



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24 Oct 2015 11:48 by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5247 posts Send private message

deleted by johnzx


This message was last edited by johnzx on 24/10/2015.



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24 Oct 2015 16:54 by MFraser Star rating. 33 posts Send private message

When I broached this topic with a British aquaintance we met a while back in Spain, a guy who wasn't interested in declaring his earnings in Spain (working as a builder for expats) I was told, 'When in Rome, do as the Romans do. The Spanish go out of their way to avoid paying taxes'.  Whether this is true or not, it is a widely-held belief of many expats living in Spain. I hasten to add...I am not like-minded!





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26 Oct 2015 12:40 by mariadecastro Star rating in Algeciras (Cadiz). 9347 posts Send private message

Legal Questions? Speak to Maria Direct

Padron is a local record of residency in a certain municipality. Residency needs to be proved in order to get registered.

Info from the Statistics National Institute:

The Municipal Register is the administrative register of residents of the municipality. Its data constitutes proof of residence in the municipality and habitual residence in the same.

Everyone who lives in Spain is obliged to register in the Register of the municipality where he usually resides. Anyone living  in several municipalities, must register only where he is living longer each year.

Registration in the Municipal Register requires only the following mandatory data for each neighbor:

a) Name

b) Sex

c) Regular Address

d) Nationality

e) Place and Date of Birth

f) Number of National Identity Card or, for foreigners, the document replacing it.

The formation, maintenance, and custody of the Municipal Register corresponds to the Council, in accordance with the rules adopted jointly by the Ministry of Finance and the Ministry of Public Administration at the proposal of the Registration Council, obtaining the Municipal Register Review reference to January 1 of each year.

Law 7/1985, of 2 April, Regulating the Bases of Local Government and Regulation of Population and Territorial Demarcation of local entities establishes that the municipalities must submit, by computer or electronic means, the monthly variations that will be producing data on their Municipal Registers to the the National Institute of Statistics so that it, in compliance with the obligations under Article 17.3 of that Basic Law, perform the appropriate checks to correct errors and duplications and so Official figures resulting from the annual revisions can be declared official.



_______________________

Maria L. de Castro, JD, MA

Lawyer

Director www.costaluzlawyers.es

El blog de Maria



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26 Oct 2015 14:47 by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5247 posts Send private message

The problem with paying Allowances to towns to cover based on the number of people registered on their Padron is, in my opinion, an outdated and very poor way of calculating that payment.

At the extreme, a town with a very large number of properties owned by non-residents, i.e. used as holiday homes, means that the town receives less than a town with the same number of properties but whose owners are permanently resident.

That some properties at not occupied permanently does not substantially reduce the cost of running the municipality. I believe it is for that reason many, or at least some, towns, very actively encourage non-resident owners to register on the Padron. 

A tourist town requires infrastructure, which in the present system is not allowed for. One example, Tourists get ill and require medical facilities and Police numbers need to be higher.   Just a couple of the services dependant on the Allowances.

I believe it is a matter of the system catching up with reality.

Before non-resident property ownership,  the number registered was a reasonable way of assessing the requirements of the town. That has changed considerably since the non-resident property owner existed. 

The system now needs to be revised to reflect that change. 

A system of allowances based on the number of properties would be a much fairer system.  In the meanwhile, municipalities will be encouraging  non-resident owners to register on their Padron.

 

From :-     http://www.almanzora-au.org/padron.php

Its your civic duty

A town cannot allocate adequate services and facilities if it does not know how many people live there. The number of inhabitants affects the local council’s budget for providing health centres and their staff, police officers, firefighters, post offices and their employees, schools and number of teachers, and so on. For each inhabitant, the central government gives 193 euros a year to the town council to allow it to provide these services, improve on exisiting ones, and generally enhance quality of life of the townspeople. This means that in a municipality where 50,000 people are registered on the padrón and 10,000 are not, local people are losing out on a whopping 1.93 million euros a year. Imagine how many doctors’, teachers’ or firefighters’ salaries that would pay for.Whats in it for me?Proof of residence means reduced inheritance tax, and if you are aged 65 or more, you get a free municipal bus pass. I’ve heard that you have to re-register every three months. Is this true? No – once you are empadronado, you will be on the register until you move house and advise the town hall accordingly. However, a number of transactions you will probably need to carry out require a copy of the certificate you are given when you first register, and these certificates are only valid for three months. It is only necessary to have an up-to-date certificate in your hand if you need it to show someone when you are dealing with such transactions. To get one, just pop along to your town hall and ask for another copy, which they will usually print off in seconds.





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26 Oct 2015 16:53 by Tadd1966 Star rating in Los Montesinos. 1755 posts Send private message

johnzx

that was pretty much the advise given by our town hall to all property owners



_______________________
“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge”



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