La Herrada Holiday Home Owners - Beware

I take your point Johnzx but what I fail to understand is why countries within the EU don't appear willing to look to good practice and regulatory systems wiith proven track records and be willing to replicate rather than keep reinventing the wheel... A wheel that frequently results in costly inefficiences, failures to enforce and sadly remains open to corrupt elements. I remember reading YEARS ago a wonderful posting by Faro who suggested that Spain was failing in all too many areas due to lack of GOOD regulatory controls. I don't mean more laws persee but trustworthy governing bodies that oversee and regulate the real estate industry (and legal fraternity) with powers to fine those with malintent and thereby regulate their members which in itself would reassure those wishing to invest in Spain.

Why do you keep on about Spain and its lack of good practices, you're dealing with human beings here, and once they get into the frame all hell is let lose, the UK has just as many bad ways once you start to do any dealings with it in any larger then normal ways?

You can put in place every regulation going that makes sense but you cant make them work if the powers to be want it to work otherwise.

I dealt with a chap a while ago who paid me by cheque, when a Scotland Yard detective interviewed me and ask where the money came from, I told him the bank account, his words were..."Oh we didn't know about that account"  this person was a local councillor in charge of who builds what and where in my area...for a price you understand, he went to jail, back out of jail the same council employed him back,  another person is now doing his job for probably a smaller back hander...Perhaps.

It goes on in every country, everywhere,  all around you.

Quote: We   let out our villa and there is a fair amount of electricity included in the price. Guests are asked to pay for any excess.

I always find such lets amusing and always avoid them.

I figure if you can't afford the electricity bill then you probably can't afford lots of other things and shouldn't be letting in the first place.

Living in a place where the planners hate to say yes you need to employ a savvi builder, I've heard rumours of little brown envelopes being passed on to building inspectors in out of the way country pubs, but I've never met anyone daft enough to confirm this, we've had work done that required planning permission, it just makes one wonder, doesn't it?

Until such time as dependable regulatory bodies are in place (and for that matter effective transparent reporting and monitoring mechanisms), it will always depend upon whistle blowers on such sites as these (with private message systems in place) to forewarn "innocents" of corrupt practice.

Forewarned is forearmed, but in the interim failure to address the far wider picture (denial) will sadly only assist those with hidden agendas and perpetuate the brown envelope or tit for tat mentality, and result in growing distrust, division, and all the ensuing economic impact.

It's important to strive for effective solutions (not patches to a failing system) and be supportive and more proactive in getting citizens' voices and those "good peoples" voices with first hand knowledge of the real estate industry heard in this process, with the ultimate aim to influence workable reform, reassure and build trust on both sides of the equation, which in the process should assist Spain,  its businesses and citizens alike, whilst also assisting those wishing to invest.

A tall order for all those with good intent .

Just heard of another house let by this lady without the owner knowing - big stand up argument last night nearly came to blows

From a legal perspective what can be done to resolve this? Can the owners affected by this corrupt behaviour swiftly gain cancellation of contracts with their agent using a small claims court perhaps and is there any legal means of fining the corrupt agent who illegally makes provision of the keys without owners consent or knowledge? Is there a low cost legal route to eradicate this abusive behaviour and in the process clean up the rental sector ? Do contracts with agents not provide sufficient protection against this eventuality with swift compensation and cancellation rights?

Ads-. Both the owner and/or the person who rented can make denuncias to the National Police or Guardia whichever are the police for the area (but not the policia local as they have no jurisdiction in criminal matters).

NB that must be done in person, as that sort of crime is not covered by the  902 102 112  facility.

Note:  There can be no legal contract to cancel in the case described, it is a criminal act,

In passing:   In Spain one does not need to go to the police to make any denuncia, it can be done directly to a court, where there will usually be a court translator available to assist.

Thanks Johnzx. In reality is this a slow process and route to justice given the overloaded courts, or by making a denuncia direct to the court does this speed up enforcement against the perpetrator? What are the legal procedures that follow the initial  denuncia and do you consider this an effective route to justice, or would there be anything to gain by standardising rental contracts to stipulate that in the event of the owner not being informed of rental the owner retains the right to  immediately cancel the contract etc. In effect do rental contracts need to be stregthened to protect the owner?

Ads:     If a fraudulent rental has been made then that is a crime which should be reported to the police, or as I said directly to the court.    In either case it is the judge who decides what further action will be taken.

I am pretty sure that almost all rental contracts are probably not worth the paper they are printed on   i.e. not legal, so it probably makes no difference what the wording is. 

(Please don't ask me to justify why I say that. It can be researched on the internet).

As I said if the rental is fraudulent there is no legal contract. Of course in some cases the key holder or whatever, may have some sort of agreement with the owner authorising them to let the property, so they, key holder etc.,  may have an argument that they ‘forgot to tell the owners’.      That may remove the criminal aspect t and make it a civil action. 

Without the full facts, even a person qualified in Spanish law may have difficultly giving a 100% correct answer:   Needless to say I am not qualified in Spanish law.

Ok thanks Johnzx.

So  given the inference that "rental contracts are not worth the paper they are written on", the question now remains with the legal fraternity, should rental contracts be better standardised to protect owners from the outset, so as to eliminate abusive practice as identified within this thread? Is this something that the legal fraternity are reviewing?

Note I do not wish to focus solely on owners rights as I'm sure there are instances of abuse by owners that equally need to be eradicated also via the strengthening of rental contracts.

Ads  ………… should rental contracts be better standardised to protect owners from the outset, so as to eliminate abusive practice as identified within this thread?

I thought this thread was only referring to illegal lets.   

I personally have no comment to make about contracts re legal letting.

My original post was not about legal or illegal letting contracts it is about an individual who is cheating holiday property owners by letting out their property without informing them and probably avoiding paying tax on any income received

Rental received by a landlord is subject to tax as income (minus any allowances etc)

A legal letting contract can be written or verbal and has nothing to do with this thread, obvioulsy written is better but verbal contracts are binding and not difficult to prove

There is no such thing as an illegal contract if someone is paying an agreed sum to another party whether that party is the owner or not

Anyone staying or living in a property without permission is trespassing or squatting

Anyone staying in a property with the owners permission has a legal contract

In this case the people renting the property are innocent (unless they do know what is going on) and the guilty one is this lady who is robbing the owners and renting our property without permission

In this case the people renting the property are innocent (unless they do know what is going on) and the guilty one is this lady who is robbing the owners and renting our property without permission

Tadd      That is  why I said, “  Both the owner and/or the person who rented can make denuncias to the National Police or Guardia ...............  ”

Having read this informative article

http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/2015/03/06/explaining-the-latest-changes-to-spains-rental-laws/

I now understand your concerns Johnzx about meeting issues of legality when you quoted “it all the other regulations and laws which must be complied with which make it so difficult to actually be 100% legal.. “ so now I’m wondering where this leaves the owner in this particular scenario?

Are they in effect at risk themselves if they make a denuncia against this woman given it is nigh on impossible to comply with all these regulations and laws, and if so, what is the best way forward to prevent this woman from continuing with this abusive practice?

Does this scenario expose a major problem i.e. that others such as this woman could replicate this abusive behaviour to their own advantage, in full knowledge that any person bringing a denuncia will be at risk themselves? Perhaps I have misunderstood?

ads

this is why people like this lady get away with what they are doing as the owners probably don't comply with the regulations regarding renting property

the owners are highly unlikey to report a key holder as it may simply come back and bite them in the backside

what is the answer - take your keys back (change the locks) and don't use a keyholder

By coincidence a man came to the police station (National) yesterday wanting to give info about someone whom he believed was not paying taxes, was working illegally , had not paid rent for a couple of shops he had rented, smokes hash etc.   The police said they had no power to take a crime report (denuncia) and that the matters he was informing about were not matters dealt with by the police.

I suggested that the man contact a nearby Foreign Residence Dept whom I was sure would help him.

I have just spoken to that office.

Their advice was: 

RE trading illegally, contact the Town Hall for the area as he would need an Opening Licence: 

Re employing people illegally, contact the Social Security office for the area and the Office for Employment.  : 

Re Taxes not paid, contact Hacienda. 

RE a dubious bank account, contact the bank concerned.

Basically as I suggested, contact the competent authority for the matter being complained about..

What about equal accountability of Town Halls and officials who turned a blind eye to development on land subsequently deemed illegal?

What about the accountability of Notaries and Conveyancing lawyers who allowed completions on properties without FLO's in place thus significantly compromising owners?

Clamp downs on illegal behaviour should be equally applied should it not?

coincidences alway amaze me

coincidences always amaze me

They do me too. 

They happen so very often to me, that it used to concern me ( I am not in the least spiritual, religious etc)  but I have stopped worrying about it now