La Herrada Holiday Home Owners - Beware

I asked a question, not of you by the way, I didn't dream anything up, I thank argarcia for his answer

When one asks a question on a forum by inference it is directed  at all who read and contribute to the forum. 

In this case, I told you what I had experienced.  That is I gave a factual account.

 Andy Garcia, may not have been doing that, as he did not qualify what he said.

Sorry  if I upset you.

Some years ago, Hacienda  wrote and asked me to make an appointment, as some one had told them I had failed to pay some taxes on a property I owned i.e. that I had been letting it but not declaring

johnzx please do not take this the wrong way

I am confused buy this statement based on some of your other reponses in other threads especially when asking about peoples experience and what you were told during your coincidences etc. etc.

did whoever report you do it via a denuncia or other means, did they do it anon or did you know who it was that reported you?

happy that you managed to sort it out though

Tadd sorry to be a bore.

But I did say previously that one can only make a denuncia when a crime has been committed, Usually that is when the crime was against the person making the denuncia.  I did on one occasion make a denuncia to the Guardia Civil  for a friend who in a small boat sailing across the Atlantic.    He  had received an email saying his father's car (father was in UK) had been stolen from  the drive of  my friend's house in Spain.  I was asked if I knew for sure a crime had been committed and if I could give details.

I also said, I believe specifically, that non payment of taxes is not a matter which the police are competent to deal with, so no denuncia.

I also said that if one wanted to inform on a person, whom they thought was not paying taxes,  then they could inform Hacienda.  That is what I was told happened in my case. I do not KNOW for sure who it was !!!

I also said that if people were allowed to make denuncias anonymously, then that would probably lead to malicious allegations, by neighbours/friends etc.  That is I believe what happened in my case,  as the allegation had no substance whatsoever and thus, Hacienda wasted their time and mine and they were obliged to apologise.

johnzx no problem being a bore

I know I am drifting and I apologise but some examples of why I get confused with your postings.

I do not want to get into a debate over this and wil say no more (even if you do respond) but sometimes it is fun being confused - all just a bit of fun

Apprx. 300€ - a lot of money to be approx and not remember exact figure especially with the reson you were paying it for

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Since an experience similar 30 years ago,

Or

Some years ago, Hacienda...................... 

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I have been aware of people making reports about when their property was let.

A percentage of those, my son is one, must be left empty

OR

it confirms the action taken by my son who has a property which he would like to sell but is waiting for the market to improve, was right.   In the meanwhile he has let a friend stay in it rent free.

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Their advice was: 

RE trading illegally, contact the Town Hall for the area as he would need an Opening Licence: 

Re employing people illegally, contact the Social Security office for the area and the Office for Employment.  : 

Re Taxes not paid, contact Hacienda. 

RE a dubious bank account, contact the bank concerned.

So why did you not know this based on your experience you cudl ahve simply posted that experience when the question asked

BTW I did call into the town hall today in LM and asked aout reporting illegal businesses and they said quite vclearly that any illegal business should be reported to the police via denuncia and not to the town hall (maybe another confused area of Spain!!!). they did offer to asisst me in raising a denunciai aganist an illegal business if I knew of any.

Well thanks Tadd.  I don’t know whether to be confused,  or flattered that you have so much interest in what I say.

'Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.'

Confucius

Had one PM from someone who lives on LH and guess what - he uses this lady and had some suspicions in the past but can't prove anything he is on his way over next week to get the keys back from her and change the locks

Why dont all those compromised by this woman come together to make a denuncia? Would this not reinforce your claims?

Why don’t all those compromised by this woman come together to make a denuncia? Would this not reinforce your claims?

Ads,  from reading the various posts I do not believe it is that simple. 

Firstly,  because it appears that whilst there is a lot of suspicions there seems to be little or no proof of fraud.  High utility bills are not legal proof.

Also to make a denuncia the victim would have to make an allegation of a crime having been committed against them , which they believe to be truthful, otherwise it can be a crime by them under 456 / 7 Penal Code, punishable with imprisonment and a fine.

The circumstances of the agreement between the owner and the key holder would also need to be clear, preferably in writing.  Just a possibility:   If the key holder has an agreement that they can let, say when the property is not occupied, the precise circumstances of that agreement would need to be clear. If not the key holder could claim they just forgot to pay the owner. That would probably make it a civil debt at the most.

Also,  That more than one person makes a denuncia would require each one to satisfy the legal requirements to establish a criminal act. 

And finally, as has been mentioned, there is probably a strong possibility that none of the owners have satisfied the very complicated conditions to be able to legally let, thus may be putting themselves in jeopardy.

I suspect that this one will just go down as a lesson to all, although I have no doubt many will still fall foul of that type of situation.

Thank you Johnzx.

As a possible solution to this abusive practice therefore, might the following work for those wishing to occasionally rent out their properties .....ensure that agreements with keyholders specify in writing that the owner MUST be notified via email (instant written communication) or mobile text, PRIOR to any rental and within a specified time constraint (necessary anyway in case the owner wishes to plan ahead and use the property themselves).... the question then remains, would a written agreement of this nature be considered a legally binding agreement I wonder? 

How do good agents who manage owners' properties for short term rental (as opposed to independent keyholders) make legal provision against abuse by their own keyholders, I wonder? Are standardised legal agreements stipulating the requirement for owner to be advised PRIOR to rental, already in place between agent, owner and any subcontracted keyholder?

Ads,  I will not attempt to suggest how one might  legally overcome the problem, which I am pretty certain is far from uncommon.  And as I said, the main stumbling block  is probably that most rentals are not 100% legal, so no matter what agreement one might have, in whatever form, they are probably little belter than useless.

However, I did mention earlier that when I discovered my key holder/cleaner was letting without my knowledge, I told her I aware electricity was being consumed when the property was unoccupied and thus I had a arranged for a friend, whom I did not name, to make periodic checks when it was not let.  I did not actually have anyone to make the checks but I think it deterred further abuse