More no news about Corvera and Paramount

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22 Nov 2014 11:29 by Woodbug Star rating. 371 posts Send private message

So the €16.2m EU subsidy that was heralded as ‘the start of the great Paramount project’ isn’t from the EU at all – it is coming from Spain’s tax-payers!  That is ...........when it is completed, not before. So let me get this right: There is no money to start the project, build it or finish it but there is €16.2m available when it is complete! What makes Spanish politicians tick?

Still no news about Corvera.  Having said that, what would be the point of an airport in Corvera – there ain’t anything there to attract passengers. Will the $182m loan be approved by the EU? Who will pay the multi-million compensation to close St Javier? Would Covera survive on the meagre pickings that would be obliged to fly there once St Javier closes? Winter flights are almost non-existent from St Javier  ‘cos it doesn’t pay any airlines to fly there in the winter  and annual passenger figures are down 41% since 2007 – so what has Corvera got that will reverse this trend?

Currently costing the tax-payer €22,000 per day in interest on current loans – can we afford to keep this white Elephant alive just to appease some arrogant , megalomaniacs who refuse to accept that the whole concept of Covera and Paramount have been TWO typical Spanish cock-ups? I could be quite wrong as Covera is going to open in April 2015 according to ‘a spokesman says’ - just before the municipal elections.................what a coincidence.

 


This message was last edited by Woodbug on 22/11/2014.



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22 Nov 2014 16:28 by inspectahome Star rating. 43 posts Send private message

How cam you say that there is NO NEWS about Corvera when updates are all over the Spanish press and other forums, the have just recruited more senior staff, I know they are living on Corvera Golf,  and flight landings for certification start on Decenber 9th for licencing hopefully on the 15th

The minsiter responsible is still saying that they are aiming to be fully operational by April 2nd

Also take a look at the flight increases into Alicante, perhaps for AENA the writing is on the wall and they have been switching flights from San Javier to Alicante, especially true if you are looking for flights form Ireland, Scotland or the North of England

IIt was suggested in the Spanish prees by the minister that AENA were making is more cost effcetive to use Alicante, lets be honest airlines will vote with their wallets, a real good indication of operational costs is how much more expensive the few flights are into San Javier compared to Alicante. I did this with Stansted flights, same dates San javoer on Ryaniar almost twice the price, why

There is demand there, we know form feedback from custo,ers, just no Winter flights

 

 

 


This message was last edited by inspectahome on 22/11/2014.

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22 Nov 2014 16:39 by acer Star rating. 1415 posts Send private message

I read it's opening on 2nd April - the day before would seem more appropriate! 

But I'm not so sure Woodbug, my guess is that it will happen, but probably not for a while yet.  When it does there will be an advantage over San Javier - it will be capable of receiving the largest aircraft, so there's arguably a whisker of justification.



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22 Nov 2014 17:23 by steone Star rating in Santiago de la Riber.... 386 posts Send private message

Isn't it fantastic how people/readers can see the same information and get two entirely different conclusions?

Just posted on !murciatoday is a very good article about Corvera airport. It states that the projection from Deloites regarding the passenger footfall at Corvera assumes that Paramount and another 'developement' would be up and running by now. They are not even started and in fact the other developement is actually illegal and can/should not be started. Therefore the passenger numbers for Corvera will be far less than those being bandied about by our esteemed politicians. As far as I am concerned the most important part of the article was the the statement that whoever runs Corvera will not pay AENA the money they are asking to close MJV which is between €35 million and €80 million. If this is correct then MJV will stay open and then divide up the falling number of passengers between both airports. The result of this will mean that the PRIVATE airport, Corvera, will obviously fail as MJV is State owned and therefore does not need to make a profit! Another point raised by this article is that the present 'management' of Corvera have managed to obtain a 40 year loan. If any other company is bought in to run Corvera then the loan term will be reduced to just 20 years maximum. It does not take a genius to see that it will be practically impossibe to pay the loan and make a profit so this will mean failure for Corvera.

On real FACTS, not glib unrealistic projections, I can not see any future for Corvera and as stated in a previous posting the residents and businesses of Murcia will be saddled with this massive loan for which it is currently paying about €22,000 PER DAY in INTEREST ONLY. No mention of how the capital will be repaid. It is also reported that the request into Brussels for approval of the loan was 'incorrect'  in certain key features. To name 2 of them, one was the 'omission' that MJV has only 1 runway whereas we all know there are 2 and also the opening hours of the airport. It was allegedy stated that MJV was only open in the afternoon and early evening whereas the truth is that it IS open from 07:30 till 23:00, the same hours as Corvera are proposing to be open.

This farce is verging on criminality yet no action will be taken on the real villians of this debacle who have lied and only thought of their own pockets at everybody elses cost. A certain politician PROMISED that whatever happened, no resident of Murcia would pay a single cent for this loan! Oh really?

It is most important in Spain to understand when a politician is telling fibs........ it is when his lips move!!!



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23 Nov 2014 07:57 by inspectahome Star rating. 43 posts Send private message

~~ MJV is State owned and therefore does not need to make a profit!There are many issues with AENA and their IPO, the plans were to sell off around 49% of the operation in Nivember which has been delayed and below is just some of the press available

Yesterday, the Spanish Government decided to postpone the Aena’s IPO which was expected for November, 12. The reason behind this is that there was a “formal defect” in choosing the auditor for that process; there was not a public tender. This auditor is supposed to be responsible to ensure that the company accounts are in order before being listed on the Spanish stock exchange. Yesterday, ElDiario.es informed that, last week, the Government’s board should have approved the Aena’s IPO for a 28% of the company to go public. Afterwards, the Spanish Agency for market regulation - CNMV – was supposed to authorise the brochure

ARENA will be under the cosh to perform and therefore the statment sayimng that they as state owned don't have to make a profit isn't true, in fact with new investors will look even closer at the operations and non-profitable airports, like San Javier, how much easier potentially to transfer existing staff and commevrial agreements to another location rather that spend on operational costs

I suggest that the flotation could have a big effect on the way that San Javier is viewed by AENA amd the national government but to see more just Google search for information on the privatisation, as normal in Spain another c*** up

 

 



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23 Nov 2014 09:44 by Woodbug Star rating. 371 posts Send private message

All the wishful thinking in the world by politicians and those with a vested interest in Corvera Airport and the Paramount comedy won’t alter the fact that even if by any remote chance Corvera does open, it will be a massive burden around the tax-payers necks – nobody has mentioned where the extra few million passengers are going to come from to make Corvera viable. The Paramount project is so old and has been hawked around the world lending institutions for so long, that no investors are remotely interested in it.

Air routes have to be agreed prior to any activity and we are told that it takes a minimum of 6 months for approvals. Has Corvera even applied for any routes yet?

The state owned airport owners AENA are not noted for their business acumen and Corvera would just become another of the 35 out of 48 Spanish airports that do not make any profit. AENA carry debts of €12.5bn. The only positive note with this virtually bankrupt outfit is that the government will offload part of the company to public sector and hope to raise €10bn in doing so. Who would want to invest in a decrepit debt ridden organisation that owns ghost and loss-leading airports?

I have no doubt that Corvera will open, as the politicians and other deluded supporters of the scheme will not lose face by admitting that this is a disaster waiting to happen – but look at sustainable provincial airport passenger figures in relation to profit:

Liverpool             4.5 million passengers    £7.1m Loss

Stanstead            18million passengers      £98m Profit

Let’s assume that 8 million passengers would bring Corvera to the cut-even point – where will they come from?  Even if St Javier closes and 100% passengers transfer to Corvera, it would only produce 1m movements. Whichever way you come at this one – the locals will be the losers and will continue to pick up the tab for this huge white elephant. The winners?  As usual, only that elite band of Politicians and Estate Agents.





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23 Nov 2014 13:07 by steone Star rating in Santiago de la Riber.... 386 posts Send private message

It is very interesting that the only point that inspectahome has commented on is the minor point that AENA is State controlled and does not need to make a profit. My friend has not commented on the fact that the proposal submitted to Brussels is verging on criminal by being misleading to say the least. Also my friend has not commented on the statement that 'Corvera' will not pay AENA any money to close MJV and therefore both airports will remain open at the same time. He has not commented on the €150,000 per week that us poor residents of Murcia are paying in interest on this 'loan'. No one has commented on the reported fact that air traffic control at MJV will remain open and be the one used  for Corvera. The ATC at Corvera will only be used 'to park the planes'!

As Woodbug states it appears obvious to anyone who can add up that it will be virtually impossible for Corvera to opperate at a profit with what now seems to be the expected number of passengers that Corvera will attract. Whilst I do not agree that it will need 8 million passengers for Corvera to be profitable it will probably need between 3 to 4 million. So where are all these people coming from? What will be the attraction of flying to Corvera (where on earth is Corvera?) instead of Alicante?

On another point raised is that Alicante is being promoted to take the existing passengers from MJV. I live very near MJV and if it closes I will have to choose between ALC and Corvera. The difference in time for me between the 2 is about 30 mins. by car and out of choice I would rather travel to ALC rather than Corvera. I am certain I am not the only one who will make that choice.
 



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23 Nov 2014 13:44 by inspectahome Star rating. 43 posts Send private message

OK here we go again, shooting the messenger so to comment on what is actually happening in the area

In none of my posts have I ever commented that the decision to build the airport is now seen as not very sound, giventhe financial situation, but now what is done is done, they have built a state of the art facility which you would know if you had visited is a little like comparing Sothend on Sea wth London  Heathrow. One that is actually located centrally in the area that it is supposed to service, Murcia, with all of the necessary transport infrastructure ready to go, the road links etc, but based down on the coast with limited access routes and problems with thins like building rail links

The fact that AENA has to be profitable is a key factor, San Javier must be loosing money, this afternoon there are 2 flights, Madrid and one from Stansted and the first flight tomorrow is at 10.45am of the 5  daily flights, compared to the 31 flights due into Alicante this afternoon

The facts are that AENA actually don't need to operate San Javier, which is why so many Winter flights have switched to Alicante

I have no idea if the proposal submitted to Brussels is proper, legal or otherwise in fact neither does anybody else who comments on this forum know, they are not stupid and will judge this on the information that they have, after recently visiting the site

San Javier may actually close without any compensation having to be paid, perhaps AENA will decide that for them it doesn't make commecrial sense and that they plan to focus on Alicante, where they already seem to be doing, look at the flight schedules

I am a tax payer in Murcia as well but I would still rather see the facility open and proving otself or not before making a judgement

Corvera is designed as an INTERNATIONAL,airport to attract visitors from OUTSIDE of unlike Alicante where perhaps they didn't want to comptete other airports in the AENA group

You comments regarding ATC are actually not correct, I know this as a fact, it is actually more likely that the military controllers will have a more active role

So Steon based on where you live you would rather drive down the N332 or go through 2 tolls to go to Alicante rather than the trip along the C3319 and motorways.

The fact is that people will decide on price and availability,if Corvera have the flights and prices you will fly from Corvera, anyone would based on these factors but you can only fly form MJV is there are flights, Steon have you made the journey to Corvera yet

The FACTS are that I am closer to the issues than mst and I don't know what will happen and neother does anybody else who comments on here  but there are some interesting FACTS to be considered

 

 

 


This message was last edited by inspectahome on 23/11/2014.

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23 Nov 2014 15:39 by steone Star rating in Santiago de la Riber.... 386 posts Send private message

Hi everyone

My comments in previous postings are taken from published articles from "!murciatoday". Can I please ask posters to read the articles on there including those published on 21 November, 18 November and also 14 November before trying to shoot this messenger. This is where I have obtained my information and I have found that their articles seem to be nearer the truth than a lot of other articles published in the local free papers.

The bottom line is we are all being treated like mushrooms. (Kept in the dark for most of the time and then occasionally fed a load of bovine escretia!)

The biggest problem here is the lack of genuine information from the powers that be. I am certain that inspectahome feels that he has more information than most others on here as he is in the thick of it and I most certainly appreciate his postings with the specialist info he has. However he is still on the outside looking in and I and most other posters are not even close enough to be on the outside as we are not even within sight of the outside.

For your info Yes I have been to the outside of Corvera on several occasions so I do know where it is etc.

 



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23 Nov 2014 15:55 by inspectahome Star rating. 43 posts Send private message

Murcia Tiday as you point out quite correctly do write very good information but agian they are the same sa we all are, mushrooms and much of the information they have is gleamed from the Spanish press and translated

We have no right to information, we are not involved in the management of these projects and what will happen will happen regardless of what is written on an English language forum

Las week I had quite a heated debate with the owners of Murcia Today where I tried to explain the game that AENA were playing with Alicante vrs San Javier and 2 days later the minister involved made exactly the same quote in a press conference.

What I objected to in the published piece was that there was no demand for flights in Murcia and this ws causing the decline of the airport, what I tried to explain was that perhaps AENA were making it nore attractive financially for the airlines to fly into Alicante, after all, why when you check the online prices comparing the flighst form the 2 airports are flights form Murcia so expensive, same airline, same destination, same dates, twice the price

I can say from REAL feedback from people who want to visit the region between now and Easter is the prices and lack of flights, especially from Ireland, Scotland and The North, flights that operated last year and while people continue to say that there isn't the demand people will believe it

The powers that be are saying that the airport will pen in April and they are activley rcruiting staff and getting the airport ready for those dates, again as publsihed in the SPANISH press

I am looking foreward to watching the jet test flights early next month and greeting the new staff arrivals tomorrow, that is another FACT, not speculaton



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23 Nov 2014 16:29 by inspectahome Star rating. 43 posts Send private message

http://www.aena.es/csee/ccurl/336/670/Estados%20financieros%20intermedios%20consolidados%20al%2030%20de%20junio%20de%202014%20(inglés).pdf

For anybody that is interesting in the operational methods for AENA it is worth taking a look at their 2014 account and summary, published in English which make interesting reading, see link above

They are very focused on the group 1 and Tourism airports which include Alicanta, Murcia is classed as a group 3  regional and later in the report it goes on to explain measures to control operational costs, hours and staffing for group 3 airports and it makes some interesting points about the AENA planning and views on the airport classifications

 

 



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23 Nov 2014 19:04 by juansheetisplenty Star rating in Cartagena. 278 posts Send private message

juansheetisplenty´s avatar

Thank you. A very interesting link! San Javier is described as  "Air bases and military airports open to civil use". I am one of those who actually wish "it" or another local airport were more active. 2 Hours to Alicante is not the best of journeys roundtrip to collect visitors! There certainly seems to be heightened political activity now, so who knows! In Spain anything is possible!

Saludos

PS You both have good points to make!

 


This message was last edited by juansheetisplenty on 23/11/2014.



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24 Nov 2014 08:32 by inspectahome Star rating. 43 posts Send private message

Today there are 62 flights arriving at Alicante today compared to San Javier where there are 3, 10.10am and then 19.45pm, the morning Madrid Flight and then 2 London flights Gatwick & Stansted

So all of the franchises earn NOTHING, food parking shops, taxis and the airport remains empty all day

I fly back to the UK in December but have to fly from Alicante, no flights on the day I need and twice as expensive to same destination on the following day

On the annual report that I sent over AEAN did not add a single new route to any of the group 2 regional airports in 2014

Interesting if you take a look at where the finance that was used to develop San Javier atually came from



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24 Nov 2014 16:17 by Woodbug Star rating. 371 posts Send private message

It is normal procedure in any business to undertake a ‘due diligence’ audit on a prospective scheme or organisation before buying, agreeing or lending. To experienced eyes a basic inspection of the balance sheet or business plan would quickly identify any aspect or entry that is outside the usual parameters and an investigation would follow. In the case of Corvera we don’t need any details from the owners, the weakness is obvious.

  1. Who pays for the cost of the  last modernisation and runway at St Javier and the compensation for the closure?
  2. Why would a few million people use Corvera – it’s basically in a wilderness. In 2011 €29m was spent on access roads, but there is no train infrastructure or public transport facility in place.
  3. Where will the passengers that are required come from? St. Javier only has around 1m passengers per annum. Tourism in Murcia attracts less than 1.5% of the total tourist number in Spain and the population of the whole Murcia region is under 1.5m heads.
  4. It doesn’t matter that staff are being recruited for Corvera because unless the EU agree to the outstanding loan application the airport can’t open.  When and if it does open, where will the income come from to pay these people? Spain is good at prematurely employing staff at airports, Castellon in Valencia did the same and years later no aircraft has ever taken off or landed. Cuidad Real Airport cost $1bn and lasted less than 3 years – now Jeremy Clarkson uses it as a playground.
  5. I don’t doubt  Corvera will open against all the odds, but no matter how you massage the facts and figures, it can’t work so it will just be number 36 out of 48 airports owned by the government that make a loss.  It doesn’t matter to AENA or the government – it’s not their Marigold they are throwing away..........it’s ours.




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24 Nov 2014 18:06 by inspectahome Star rating. 43 posts Send private message

Surely the issues here are that the area will not develop without the infrastruture and you can clearly see from the facts that AENA have no focus on MJV, they are not promoting it or incentivising airlines to use it, whiile they are witth Alicante, which is taking business away from MJV, tomorrow there are 2 flights, midday Bristol & Madrid

If you check the facts you will also find out that ot was the government who paid a fair percentage of the cost of the improvements

Corvera is not in a wilderness but lke most airports designed to be in an area to service the WHOLE of Murcia, centrally in the area between Cartagena & Murcia and there is always a developed infrastructure plan which will provde far more transport links than MJV, plus the new roads are built, public transport can only start whe  the airport opens but we do have buses out here already

Why do people contiually ignore the potebtial outsude of Europe

Why do people contintinually ask where are the passengers coming from, perhaps we should ask AENA what percentage of their increase iin pasenger numbers are bounf for Murcia to get real numbers

They are not jst employing staff but working flat out on engineering works

Corvera will open as planned

 

 



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24 Nov 2014 18:06 by inspectahome Star rating. 43 posts Send private message

Surely the issues here are that the area will not develop without the infrastruture and you can clearly see from the facts that AENA have no focus on MJV, they are not promoting it or incentivising airlines to use it, whiile they are witth Alicante, which is taking business away from MJV, tomorrow there are 2 flights, midday Bristol & Madrid

If you check the facts you will also find out that ot was the government who paid a fair percentage of the cost of the improvements

Corvera is not in a wilderness but lke most airports designed to be in an area to service the WHOLE of Murcia, centrally in the area between Cartagena & Murcia and there is always a developed infrastructure plan which will provde far more transport links than MJV, plus the new roads are built, public transport can only start whe  the airport opens but we do have buses out here already

Why do people contiually ignore the potebtial outsude of Europe

Why do people contintinually ask where are the passengers coming from, perhaps we should ask AENA what percentage of their increase iin pasenger numbers are bounf for Murcia to get real numbers

They are not jst employing staff but working flat out on engineering works

Corvera will open as planned

 

 



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24 Nov 2014 19:25 by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1593 posts Send private message

hugh_man´s avatar

 

 

No one is ignoring the potential tourist market outside of Europe but come on get real, as previously stated, Murcia receives less than 1% of Spain's tourists and how many visitors from either the Wild West or the Far East actually visit the most popular tourist areas such as Madrid, Barcelona or the Canaries.

No doubt a few visit the major cities but can you really see the Yanks or Orientals visiting La Manga strip or Mazarron?

The Russians will avail themselves of upmarket resorts such as Marbella and Barcelona and currently the Scandinavians are reasonably happy to fly to Alicante, offering them more choices than Murcia.

Cartagena is already struggling to open its shops when the cruise ships are in but apart from the fairly limited number of second home owners in and around Murcia, the demand is not there for another major airport.

Quite why Aena are concentrating their efforts on Alicante despite the government directing funds at San Javier is still a mystery, as you say, no airport can survive on 3 commercial flights a day, but whilst there is demand for more, not enough to justify Corvera.

Even the current airport manager at MJV states, Corvera will not be open before he retires and he is not that old.

I am afraid, I agree, another Spanish White Elephant brought about by devolutionary megalomaniacs.

Just because contracts are being offered does not mean the airport will actually open, but the employees will get a nice little earner, familiar territory in Spain?

 

 

 

 

 





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25 Nov 2014 08:39 by inspectahome Star rating. 43 posts Send private message

I don't understand why people that enjoy the area seem to talk down what we have available for tourists in the region which I still believe could attract visitors from around the world

There is so much history and culture and a number of what I would class 5 star resorts and hotels, including La Manga, if again they were being promoted

As far as the Russian's go we already have a high percentage of owners and visitors around Torrevieja, both for holidays and owners, especially around the beaches. Yesterday I was in Leroy Merlin La Zenia when they had announcements of offers in Spanish, English and Russian, but Russians tend to want beach side properties and they don't play a lot of golf, I have never had a sales enquiry from Russia

The journey times driving from Corvera or Alicated to the Orihuela area are similar

As far as the shopping goes Parque Mediteran in Cartagena now opens 7 days but I still cannot understand why they still close everything in Murcia

Scandavians are reasoably happy tp fly to Alicate because they are not given any other choice, there are no other flights offered which remains my key point about the way that AENA are treating MJV airport and not investing in grwoing the airport commercially, for the benefit of the region, rather than the more vocal people along the coast

Based on the actual flights it seems that we have another white elephant already MJV and as I sais in a previous post, based on the actual flight numbers and available capacity of Alicante, MJV isn't even needed, they could perhaps expand the transport infrastructure but I can still get by bus from Alicante airport to most places in Murcia, for less than €7

As I said before, based on what I know, I believe that Corvera Airport will open amd that AENA have to answer some awkard questions abot MJV plans

 

 

 

 

 



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25 Nov 2014 10:15 by searay Star rating. 238 posts Send private message

any new facality should imho be welcomed in the area ... however it is hard to see how a major airport is ever going to be financially viable with the number of tourists visiting the area ... added to the fact of allegations of corruption against the head of murcia tourist board  and no funding for the paramount park ... where are these extra tourists coming from ?

whilst i appreciate that there maybe vested interests from estate and letting agents in the area ... i dont think tourists arriving in the area want to wait around for buses ! ... with all due respect to previous poster you asked " why do people continually ask where passengers are coming from ? " i should have thought that was pretty obvious  BESAUSE PASSENGERS MAKE AN AIRPORT VIABLE . .. the hope of selling or renting more properties does not !

assuming the airport actually opens who is going to bankroll it ?..... i dont believe any posters are actually talking down the area rarther they are living in the real world and dealing in facts ... as regarding white elephants a golf and country club without a golf course springs to mind ! .

 





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25 Nov 2014 10:36 by inspectahome Star rating. 43 posts Send private message

If you arrive at Alicante or Murcia airports you have limited choices of buses or a taxi, surely the travel choices at Corvera will be the same so not sure what the differences will be

What I have tried to explain is that I have been told that there is viable new business and routes available, if of curse an airport can be bothered to go out there and promote the airport and area, which Alicante has done and won new routes

Even if you look forward to the flight schedule for April onwards at MJV they area already less than the same period last year when everywhere elso in PSoanish airports the numbers are increasing

The flight prices foor April are more expensive flying from MJV compared to Alicante, not all of the people that arruve get on a bus to Benidorm

In my view if people continue to say Murcis isn't getting the tourists then it is being talked, while all of the branding for the airport is as a military regional airport with public use, not an airport for tourism, that cannt help because AEAN teat the difference classes of airport differently in the way they financially support the airlines to fly inrto them, you can see details of this on their website and 6 month report

Yes I accet your comments absolutely on Corvera Golf but something is happening on that front

 



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