Unpaid community fees at AGM

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20 Jul 2014 10:04 by knj Star rating in Costa Blanca. 78 posts Send private message

At our AGM the president tells the meeting that Mr Bloggs has not paid his fees & is therefore not entitled to vote (as per the Community Rules) either in person or by proxy.

At my friends community the president refuses to give this information saying he is not allowed to do this.  Surley the members have a right to know about the finances of the community & who is or isn´t entitled to vote.  

Which community is right?





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20 Jul 2014 10:35 by Roberto Star rating in Torremolinos. 4523 posts Send private message

Roberto´s avatar

It's not internal community rules, it's the Horizontal Law which governs all communities, which stipulates that any member who is not up to date with their dues cannot vote. And since all expenditure, debts and monies owed etc., should be included in the annual accounts which should be available to every member, I would go with the former.

And regardless of any laws or rules, as a matter of principle, I would certainly stick up for the first president!



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20 Jul 2014 10:48 by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1837 posts Send private message

Under EU law, personal data can only be gathered legally under strict conditions, for a legitimate purpose. Furthermore, persons or organisations which collect and manage your personal information must protect it from misuse and must respect certain rights of the data owners which are guaranteed by EU law.

In disclosing in public the fact that an individual is in debt contravenes these laws. So the second president was correct and you or the general community are not entitled to the information.

If you want confirmation wade through the reams of EU data protection directives available on line.



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20 Jul 2014 10:56 by Roberto Star rating in Torremolinos. 4523 posts Send private message

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Naturally, all laws are open to interpretation - but I would say that knowing who owes you money is a pretty damned legitimate purpose! As a member of the community, you have a right to see the accounts - and the accounts must show who owes what, surely?

Maria?



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20 Jul 2014 12:11 by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1837 posts Send private message

In practice it's a grey area but the law is clear. If a debtor had a mind to sue the president for releasing the information they would probably win. With that possibility what would you do?



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Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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20 Jul 2014 12:29 by Roberto Star rating in Torremolinos. 4523 posts Send private message

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Depends what you mean by "release". Why is the president allowed to know, but not other owners? The president is the legal representative of the community - but the community is you and me. Obviously he can't publish this info in the local press, but if someone owes the community money, he owes you and me money. The president has to seek approval from the other owners to start legal proceedings to recover the debt, but can't tell them who the debtor is? Makes no sense.



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"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please"

Mark Twain

 

 

 




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20 Jul 2014 17:15 by CostaBlade Star rating in Riviera. 115 posts Send private message

The first President is correct. A list of debtors should be included in the annual accounts provided at the AGM.

Also at the AGM the owners vote to allow the Administration to pursue the debtors through the Law courts, both in Spain and in their country of origin (the country they live in).

If their country of origin is not in the EU you have no chance of getting any money out of them, if their country of origin is in the EU then you have some chance of pursuing them if you go through the correct procedure.

To say it is a Grey area is rubbish, the law is quite clear on the issue of debtors in communities.

 

Any other information (ie mickeyfinns) is incorrect.

 

Hope that helps. 

 


This message was last edited by CostaBlade on 20/07/2014.



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20 Jul 2014 19:26 by bobaol Star rating. 2256 posts Send private message

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A bit more than should. Costaluz lawyers state that minutes must contain: " a list of owners who are not updated in payment of community fees". .

Sticking the minutes up on a public notice board, however, would not be allowed.

 





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21 Jul 2014 00:30 by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1593 posts Send private message

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Releasing a list of debtors to the Community of Owners at an AGM is standard and normal practice so that owners can approve legal action and/or any surcharges.

This is not releasing the list publicly.

 

However, the law may be clear but it unbelievable how long it takes some courts to acknowledge the debt let alone collect any debts.

many debtors, especially Spanish seem to understand this and push it.





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21 Jul 2014 06:57 by Mickyfinn Star rating in Spain and France. 1837 posts Send private message

When I wrote 'grey area' my meaning was the way some communities release data to residents regarding debtors depite data protection laws. I agree the law is clear. Publishing personal debtor information by community administrators is breaching these laws.

Releasing data at AGM meeting of the overall community debtor information without identifying the individual culprits is not.



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Time is the school in which we learn Time is the fire in which we burn. Delmore Schwartz.



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21 Jul 2014 14:42 by baz1946 Star rating. 2205 posts Send private message

Under EU law, personal data can only be gathered legally under strict conditions, for a legitimate purpose. Furthermore, persons or organisations which collect and manage your personal information must protect it from misuse and must respect certain rights of the data owners which are guaranteed by EU law.

In disclosing in public the fact that an individual is in debt contravenes these laws. So the second president was correct and you or the general community are not entitled to the information.

If you want confirmation wade through the reams of EU data protection directives available on line.

 

I had a house in a community once and every 12 months we all got an account of what was going on / monies spent out / maintenance ect ect, and also in this account every house holders name, including the house number, who hadn't paid community charges and those that were still outstanding or not fully up to date.

And the names / house numbers of those who were up to date with the payments.

Even to the point of who was being taken to court for late and non payments.

Never any problems from anyone who had paid, and as far as I know those that didn't pay never did anything about names and house numbers being displayed in these yearly accounts.





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21 Jul 2014 16:17 by CostaBlade Star rating in Riviera. 115 posts Send private message

This has nothing to do with EU law as such.

All Administrators have to be signed up to the "Spanish data protection law" what appears at the AGM is basically a list of "debtors and creditors" as you would with any set of accounts.

Try getting somebody's email addres from an administrator - they won't give it to you, that is "data protection" 

It is not as though any personal information is attached to the list of debtors such as email address' or telephone numbers, it is just the dwelling number (within an urbanisation) and the name of that owner that carries the debt.

The information is a "law within a law" - horizontal law is designed to protect the interest of a "collective community of owners" which all sign up to and subscribe to what we know to be "horizontal law" it is a law within the laws of Spain - that is why i describe it as "nothing to do with EU law as such"  except for the protection of personal information Ie email address'/telephone numbers.

 

As a (dedicated) serving President (4 yrs) the only way I can get one of our owners email address/telephone number is if that owner offers it to me - personally or by sending me an email. What I am saying here is that the administrators, under the datas protection act is not allowed to divulge that information. However, if I say who is our biggest debtor (in the community regarding community fees) he is allowed to say "Mr Smith, apartment xyz.

 

Thank goodness the football season is not far off, I need something else to aimlessly ramble on about !! 





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12 May 2015 22:20 by promedia Star rating in Cheshire/Riviera del.... 131 posts Send private message

We have community notice boards outside every lift shaft and we update monthly the list of community debtors, we now publish the apartment number, amount and current activity ie passed to solicitors, in court, being sold etc etc etc.

the debtors got quite upset with the president when we initially included names, but he just said pay your bill and I'll remove you tomorrow!

its enough for them to be embarrassed in their own stairwells and the other residents get really annoyed when they use the pool and gardens knowing they are not paying, the worst is when the owners rent and don't pay the bills, it's then you have some leverage, unfortunately the water might go off or the TV channels don't work,  and a letter is pushed under their door informing them they are not allowed to use the pool or gardens as unfortunately the apartment owner has failed to pay their community fees, the renters immediately complain to the owners and want their money back, when they call up our administrators they are told - sorry we are unable to assist you with any problems on the community until your debt is settled, do you have a credit card handy.......it always works.



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12 May 2015 22:32 by mariedav Star rating in Ciudad Quesada. 1091 posts Send private message

OK, bit of an old thread but very relevant.

We do put up a list of debtors on our notice board as a copy of the AGM minutes are there. Some of our more, shall we say, vociferous members wanted renters banned from the pool, banned from the garden areas and some even advocated that we bar the doors to the properties. I did vote against this as it is not the renters fault. Imagine a family with a young kiddy arriving for a week or two at 3 or 4 in the morning and findind they can't get in the property. Or, having paid good money in good faith to find they aren't allowed to use the swimming pool or sit in the garden areas.

No, by all means inform them their landlord is not paying his bills. It might be nothing to do with them but may stop them renting with the same people again.

 





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