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But Baz ,
the alleged number of refusals is micro-minuscule. 1 in 100,000 UK Holidaymakers. (As I said, that's the same chance of being murdered in the UK).
Or, looked at the other way, one has 99,999 chances out of 100,000 of the card being accepted.
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Most murders get reported. Most expats and holidaymakers in Spain don't speak Spanish and haven't the first clue how to go about reporting having had to pay for some minor treatment and decide it's not worth the bother. Comparing the two is ridiculous, but typical misuse of statistics to disprove the facts. (See my signature)
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"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please"
Mark Twain
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Most murders get reported
Maybe, maybe not.
Why do I say that ?
Quote: The number of missing persons in the UK is around 275,00 p.a. Some disappear for decades, and sources, including some inside the police, say the number of people in Britain who have been missing from family, friends and usual haunts for more than a year is at least 16,000 and could be as many as 20,000.
We just do not know how many of these (or vagrants, homeless etc. who are probably not even reported as missing) may have been murdered.
On the other hand, I would think that most holidaymakers who get a reasonably large bill for medical treatment which they believe is unwarranted probably have the intelligence to make a complaint, either in that country or on their return. If complaints are not made, then it is impossible to estimate how many might be affected. To do so, it might be said, could be a "misuse of statistics" which don't even exit,
This message was last edited by johnzx on 01/06/2013.
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There are probably relatively few complaints because people are working around the systems to achieve the best outcome..........and if it was case of receiving treatment to which I was entitled hassle free by cheating or being refused treatment because some hospital beaurocrat does not understand the rules I would choose the former, criminal offence or not.
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Poppyseed
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Thanks Poppy if it had not been for people like you I would not be living on a good pension now. Well done. And the other good news is that medical treatment is free in prisons too, So win win situation.
This message was last edited by johnzx on 01/06/2013.
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Well I certainly hope it takes more than catching a few respectable taxpayers trying to obtain their rightful entitlement to healthcare to be awarded an early and lucrative taxpayer subsidised pension.
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Poppyseed
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And here we are again, talking about murder and prisons and not really answering the question posed by the original poster. "Would you rely on your "European Health card" in Spain and travel without Insurance ?" The thing is, whereas we once would have taken it for granted that you could rely on something like the E111 to receive emergency treatment throughout the EU, with the way things are currently in Spain and several other member states, perhaps it is no longer safe to make such assumptions - or at least we should expect to have to fight a little harder for our rights.
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"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please"
Mark Twain
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Poppy there you go getting it wrong again, Taxpayer subsidised pension. Unlike Civil Servants they are contributory pensions.
And, 'respectable taxpayers', don't go around breaking the law, which their taxes pay for, or encouraging others to do so either, thereby wasting the taxes they pay and justifying increases in them.
This message was last edited by johnzx on 02/06/2013.
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Poppyseed
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Poppy
that is now, when I was working, I was paying for my police pension, just like I and everyone else was paying for the State Retirement Pension. That both are now taxpayer subsidised is not the fault of those who contributed, but the mismanagement of the schemes.
But that, those who break the law and encourage others to do so, is a burden for taxpayers is not affected by pensions being paid to anyone.
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@Roberto, your comment of 01 June, 18.30.
Pure common sense, excellent advice.
An anecdote: An English neighbour recently complained that his doctor at the local health centre speaks good English but refused to speak to him in English. This caused some head scratching at first then all became clear.
Another English neighbour went to see the same doctor for the first time having been warned by me that he could be difficult. The doctor asked him if he spoke Spanish. He replied that he did his best and demonstrated the fact. From that point on the doctor addressed him in English whenever he felt it necessary. The first neighbour adopted the attitude that it was his right to be addressed in English. He was the loser.
When you need help (anywhere, hospitals and health centres included), the Spaniards will treat YOU as you treat THEM. When you complain you HAVE to be certain that you're right.
Learning to speak Spanish is possibly of greater benefit than winning the lottery.
This message was last edited by ehw on 02/06/2013.
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I do not object to folk who want to talk about Brexit, this is a free world
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That's debateable - but on an entirely different thread to this one! 
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"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please"
Mark Twain
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Poppy
that is now, when I was working, I was paying for my police pension, just like I and everyone else was paying for the State Retirement Pension. That both are now taxpayer subsidised is not the fault of those who contributed, but the mismanagement of the schemes.But that, those who break the law and encourage others to do so, is a burden for taxpayers is not affected by pensions being paid to anyone.................
Delusion is a wonderful thing, I'll have what he's on.......meanwhile back on topic I would and indeed do travel to Spain with just an EHIC.
This message was last edited by Poppyseed on 02/06/2013.
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Poppyseed
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OK Poppy you are the one in step, as you say, we should all 'cheat the system' and encourage others to 'cheat the system'. "Delusion is a wonderful thing"
Poppy Quote:- This is why it's easier to cheat the system, he should have just (lied) given his daughters address they would not have known any different, as far as I know the hospital computers are not linked to any computers that will tell them this patient has emigrated to Spain.
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Extract from "private message" from johnzx:
"But don't loose touch with the fact that there is only one complaint about the system in every 100,000 visitors. That could easily be explained by a error in that the person was trying to use the card in a situation that was not covered by the system. That is 99,000 did not have a problem ONE may have or did.
I have been a voluntary interpreter at a police station for 15 years. During part of that time I also had teams of volunteers working at another four stations. Thus we have help many hundreds of tourist. Many tell us 'all their problems.' I have never heard one complaint about the E111 or now the EIHC not being accepted."
Voluntary interpreter in a police station or not does not alter the fact that last year Brussels had to intervene because the Generalitat de Valencia decided that they were not going to provide free care to foreigners in any none dire emergency circumstances, everybody being classified as "health tourists". This got widespread coverage in the Spanish press until it became clear that many regions of Spain were losing huge amounts of money providing health care to foreigners because they were not claiming back from other countries the monies they were entitled to under the EU agreement because of language problems. Then the press shut up.
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I do not object to folk who want to talk about Brexit, this is a free world
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Johnzx, if you are going to ''quote'' me please do not embelish the quote with your own additions in brackets or not, this may be standard practice by some but to me it shrieks manipulation and dishonesty and speaks volumes even in this trivial context.. And actually had this elderly man correctly given his daughters address to obtain the healthcare he was rightfully entitled to he would not strictly speaking have been lying as at that time it was his address.
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Poppyseed
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EHIC Card.
The latest news: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/insurance/10095362/Travel-premiums-may-rise-over-EHIC-problems.html
Spain to be fined by the EU, johnzx would have us believe there is no problem.
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I do not object to folk who want to talk about Brexit, this is a free world
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Did he? I must have been following a different thread because what I thought he was saying was that it was a small minority - which it is and that most people have no trouble - which they don't.
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2333428/Spanish-government-facing-EU-punishment-countrys-hospitals-refused-accept-European-healthcare-cards-used-millions-UK-tourists.html
That article says 120 complaints are being investigated, 11, 000,000 visitors per year
That's ONE complaint for 91,000 visitors (0.0011 %)
If those figures are correct (the newspapers are trying to exaggerate the problem so one might assume they are not under stating it) I consider that to miniscule
If anyone affected were to ask for the complaints form, I am sure that most (maybe even all) would be treated on the card without any problem.
In an earlier post, I did explain that the problem is I believe that Madrid, who get the payments from UK etc. are not passing them on to the centres that have provided the treatment. Thus some of the centres (costa del sol hosp was one, I spoke to them about it some while ago) were trying to get patients, who had insurance cover, to pay with their insurance so that the centres got the payments direct.
This message was last edited by johnzx on 03/06/2013.
This message was last edited by johnzx on 03/06/2013.
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"...we have help many hundreds of tourist. Many tell us 'all their problems.' I have never heard one complaint about the E111 or now the EIHC not being accepted"
 How sweet! Would anyone who feels they've just been screwed by officialdom in a foreign country renowned for corruption seriously think of going to the police to complain?! Come ON! They're more likely to complain to a local barman while drowning their sorrows.
" johnzx would have us believe there is no problem"
There isn't, because it hasn't affected him personally. End of discussion. Moderators, please close this thread.
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"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please"
Mark Twain
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