BE HONEST...Would you stay in Spain if it wasn't for the weather?

My wife and myself have been living in Spain for nearly 19 years now, firstly in Andalucia and now in Valencia (we fancied a change about 9 years ago you see).  Its terrible isn't it?  I don't know how we stand it really.  I mean, look at this, isn't it shameful?

1.20 Euros for a large glass of very nice wine.  That's awful, isn't it?

Spanish equivalent of Council Tax?  135 Euros for a YEAR!  That's a disgrace, that is!  Especially for a stone-built 3 Bed, 3 Bath house with two terraces and a patio with trees and a pond in it.  It's surrounded by Orange Groves but I suppose they have to grow the things somewhere.

Menu del Dia of 3 courses:  8 Euros!  Including wine!  Time that was put a stop to!

Sunshine most of the year and still no hosepipe-ban!  What are they thinking of?

Nice neighbours, friendly Police, beautiful smiling Spanish girls?

I tell you, I just can't take anymore!

I'm off to live next door to that boring bloater Norman.  :>)

 

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

We've lived here 4 years after owning our house for 10. We are early retirees so are on a limited budget and yes we've seen things change over the 10 years we've been coming to Spain, and yes we've had to tighten our belts ever so slightly but if we came back to the UK we'd have to go back to work or try and claim benefits as we couldn't live on the amount of income we have, and as my husbands health isn't good that's a no brainer. The weather is glorious here, and yes I suppose that's one of the reasons many of us came in the first place, but not the only reason. I have considered many times what I'd do if I am the one left here on my own one day, and the answer is I honestly don't know. A part of me says go back to the UK to be nearer my family, then I look out into my garden and think what would I be going back too, by then a big proportion of my family will no longer be around as they are a lot lot older than me, and I just might, if I'm lucky be able to to afford a small apartment in a not too grand area where, during the winter months, I won't see a soul for days on end because everyone is shut in behind closed doors trying to keep warm. My birthday is in February and every year since we've been here it's been warm enough to find a corner in the garden to sit out and have coffee. Yes it turns cold at night but we light our log burner and our house is toasty all the way through. I won't ever rule out coming back to the UK, never say never, but at the moment I'm content with my life. I visit my family and friends at least twice a year and of course technology is a wonderful thing and helps me keep in touch.

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

What a nasty thread this is in places.

Some replies are far too long (cannot read them all) but I can see that a simple yes/no answer will not suffice for everyone and there will be disagreements but the crossover / points raised are going too far.

For my money - it would be best of both worlds - 6 months in Spain / 6 Months in UK, but at the moment cannot afford to do tha, having two homes to look-after / maintain... which I suspect is the impetous for this question.... i.e. because fo the current austerity / economic / employment gloom it's tempting to look back for greener grass over the proverbial 'other side'. If it was all boom maybe the question would not arise so much.

BTW roscomonstreet has seen a a golden opportunity to advertise his/her home !!

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

 zoso I have also always thought that 6 months uk and 6 months Spain would be perfect.    Maybe it is just because of the awful summer that my mind has drifted to more in Spain.  I am too young to retire, and earning a living at the moment is easier in the UK.  BUT I am looking for work with firms with Spanish connections - so maybe I will get to try 6 months uk 6 months Spain!!  Sounds perfect!!

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

Spain is a beautiful and fascinating country with a history that makes sobering reading.  The people are warm and friendly and, for the most part, helpful.

 

I didn't come to Spain for the weather but for the experience and it has certainly been that.  However, there are a number of experiences that have not been as positive as I would have liked and it would be dishonest of me to pretend that living here has been easy.

 

If you are part of a couple or family, then integration will be much easier (assuming you take the time to learn the language).  This is because most of the socialising is family-centric.  As a single woman, I've yet to find many Spanish friends (lots of aquaintances though).   I've lived in quite a few countries and this is the only one where I've not managed to truly integrate.

 

Whether people want to stay here or not will depend on their experiences and it helps no-one if the "Spain-lovers" attack those who've had a hard time over here. 

 

Spain is great unless something goes wrong.  Then, dealing with the authorities becomes a nightmare.  I've been fighting an illegal build for 3 years and it's like trying to nail jelly to the wall.  The local solicitors don't want to get involved lest they get blacklisted by the Ayuntamiento.  I appreciate that my experience is not commonplace but, nevertheless, it is a genuine one and worth considering when coming here.

 

Most of my friends have either been mugged or burgled - two needed hospital treatment.  The level of crime in this area (Costa Blanca) is worrying.  I guess that in the UK we know where the trouble spots are and can avoid them - here, it is not so clear.  I am nervous every time I go out alone at night.

 

It is much more expensive to live here than it used to be.  My grocery bill has doubled over the last few years and petrol (and all energy prices) have gone through the roof.  I wonder how the endemic population cope given the level of unemployment and low wages - but you have to be nothing but impressed by the way they just get on with it and still manage to celebrate like no other people that I know.  Their resilience is awe-inspiring.

 

However, if I could sell up, I'd leave.  Much as I have the utmost respect for the Spanish, the authorities and people in charge leave much to be desired.

 

 

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

A good question. I have lived in Spain for 18 years, and yes, the weather in, say May and September is pretty perfect, but apart from that, we could have six months of torrential rain followed by 2 months of insufferable summer heat (yesterday was akin to the temperatures in the Middle East).

The beaurocracy in Spain has not improved in 18 years, in fact it has got worse, as there are so many more people living here. Rude shop staff, rude Telefonica staff at a call centre in god know´s where, and crippling electricity bills do little to sell this place as ´Living the Dream´, but the major cause of Spain´s demise has undoubtedly been the wide scale corruption involving politicians, town halls and property developers who all filled their pockets when the going was good and who are now up shit creek without a paddle (to coin a phrase).

Dealings with the notary have been more akin to third world dealings, i.e bags full of cash changing hands to avoid paying tax, right under the noses of the offical notaries, who obviously also enjoyed a bung. And we are not talking 20 years ago, this was still happening widely up to 3/4 years ago. The police ... well I won´t go there ... only to say that they have a strange way of dealing with a crime .. they usually stand around being rude to the witnesses, from my experience, take NO statements from anyone, and leave it up to you whether you want to denunciar the perpetrator of the crime or not .. a strange system indeed.

So, am I here just for the weather? No, I don´t really care for the weather .. would I be on the first plane back to the UK if I could sell my apartment? No, probably not, although I love England. Would I buy a property here again? NO NEVER .. rent and keep your options open would be my advice. 6 months here and 6 months in the UK would be about the right mix I think.

 

Amatista

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

I have seen many changes here in Almeria provence over the 35 years and all for the better although it does not stop us waxing lyrically after a few vinos about 'the good old days' Yes the weather is a bonus and yes the bureaucracy drives you mad but its not 'our' bureaucracy and I am sure the same in Uk happens to foreign residents there.We cannot and should not interfere with the way they run their country so put up or shut up or alternatively one could ship out. !!

I have learnt a good discipline here in Spain....patience and the art of waiting and thats no bad thing. It works eventually !I have faith in that, I have been a 'victim' of their tax laws and their lack of communication to their foreign community and visitors to the tune of 23,000 euros and a years bad health but I put it down to experience.Ignorance cannot be an excuse.Be pro-active and find out all the information you need.Knowledge is power

Their health service is very good and thankfully not administered to death as there is always a bit of lea way should you be squeezed in at the end of what seems an endless queue.Dont forget 60 % of the queue is invaraibly just there for a bit of a  chat.

Its not cheap to live here any more but that has stopped the influx of foreigners that arrived 10 years ago attracted by cheap booze and easy mortgages. They offered nothing to the country and after bad exchanges with sterling and the recession proved they had little resources to live here in retirement, anyway So thats good too,

I think their govenment is trying to levy taxes and although horrible medicine for the indigenous to take after generations of a culture of non tax paying and corruption,they are toeing the line.Or seem to be anyway. their will always be tax dodgers in all walks of life and society. Thjeir is something very law abiding about the Spanish phsyce and I admire it.

Its a way of life living here in someone.else's country and like any life style it is a curate's egg. Good in parts

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

I am fortunate as I do the 6 month in each country.  Usually Spain, late March to early November (with August in UK) and winter months in UK although this year decided to stay in August but wouldn't do it again, too hot, too noisy.  I still have my home (paid for) in UK and a home here (also fully paid for).  I live alone with only a UK state pension but I manage but to answer the original question the answer would probably be No as I find it too cold in winter and the heating bills are cheaper in UK

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

Medical hospilisation for the elderly as is a particular cause for concern,  in Murcia the hospital is very good medically but the non medical care such as feeding is down to your nearest and dearest,friends or relatives. As the hospital covers such a huge geographic area getting to and fro could be a problem. Just experianced the problem for any doubters.

The police are a political force which has done much to bring itself forward as a civilian unit since Franco's day but is still strugglling with the neo facist past.

As Amatista says the notaires are still the same but with air conditioned offices.

Spains big problem is unemployment leading to civilian unrest which is inevitable particularly on the north coast industrial belt.

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

 I too like the 6 months / 6 months idea but broken up more.  I feel bad about taking so many flights, but my intention once current work commitments are complete is to spend approx 6 weeks in Spain, then 3 weeks in the UK.  Not rigidly, but thereabouts.  It feels scary to leave my UK house empty for too long, ditto the Spanish house.  I need a big year planner with all the key dates in both countries, so I don't keep missing the village fiesta or the F1 testing at Jerez.  And I agree with Marilyn that technology and connectivity makes it all possible.

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

Looking through these posts, I can see that a lot of the really positive posts come from people who are retired and therefore not beholden to the main issues in Spain right now. I moved to Spain 12 years ago when I was just 20 with my 1 year old daughter in tow. I moved to be closer to my elderly parents. I despise the sun and the heat, so it certainly wasn't that which enticed me to Spain. Newly single, I had no one myself, no home to live in. Coming from an inner London council estate where drug paraphernalia and gun crimes were rife, even the "grimy" slums of Torrevieja seemed like paradise. 

Back then, jobs were a penny a dozen. I could afford my rent and my food and my electric. I enrolled my kid in the local school, I learnt Spanish, lived in a predominately Spanish neighbourhood, only watched Spanish TV. Essentially I integrated, much more than most retired expats believe they are. I met my (now) husband while going out with Spanish friends (although he's actually Finnish but had lived in Spain all his life). I got married in the local Ayuntamiento. My ceremony was in Spanish. I ended up becoming a translator in hospitals, the Hacienda, the Notary for other ex pats who couldn't speak the language. I gave birth to another child in Spain (although apparently I forget how to speak Spanish in labour). So integration was anything but a problem. 

But raising kids in Spain, trying to work when there is just no work... worrying about where and how you will pay for your next meal... that is what truly put the nail in the coffin of our life in Spain. 

It's all well and good being retired. Your pension in the UK funds your life, and you get more Euros for your Pound, you never need to worry about loosing your job and money... but when your finances are dependent on of 2 years Paro, or trying to secure a job in a place where unemployment is one of the highest in the industrial world... it's terrifying. 8€ for Menu Del Dia, WOW!! But if you only have 8€ to feed a family of 4 for a week, that's kinda expensive. Iberdrola don't care if you have a 4 month old baby living in your home in the depths of winter. If you can't pay your 200€ electricity bill, they cut you off. Our council tax was only 250€ a year, sure.. but when you don't have that money in October because you've just spent 300€ funding school books, and equipment for an ailing school system, SUMA don't care if they embargo your accounts so you can't even get a couple of Euros to buy food. 

Retired people don't seem to understand that there is almost no financial help for families in Spain. There is no child benefit, child tax credit, working tax credit, housing benefit. Your families are expected to help you out financially and be honest, could your small UK pension stretch to supporting another household with 2 kids, as well as yours? My parents opted out on helping us as they felt they shouldn't have to financially support me once I was married. My husband's parents were in dire-straits because they were also still working and paying a mortgage, and the crisis had crippled them to. So there was just Paro, which eventually stopped.

I have never experienced true poverty until I lived in Spain. Friends in the UK who lived off benefits, or even those who worked poorly paid jobs were millionaires compared to us. And yes, there were times we had to resort to going through the bins for things we needed, clothes for the kids. When our washing machine and water heater broke down at the same time, I spent 8 weeks washing laundry in the bath with a kettle boiling. I took my kids to the local swimming pool for a shower every other day so they were at least clean. 

My husband spoke 5 languages fluently, but in 2 years, despite a desperate search, not one job was offered. When his paro ran out we were left with just 600€ per month of my paro for 4 people, then that too stopped. Many of our friends were in similar positions, with their parent's merger Spanish pensions supporting them. Even more friends (Spanish friends) were moving away from Spain to find work.

So when the opportunity presented itself, we moved to the UK. Things are more expensive here. Car tax, and council tax namely. But I just spent 60 pounds of school uniform for one of my children, where ordinarily I had to pay near 300€ per child. My eldest finally got the dental treatment she needed... FOR FREE! whereas we were quoted 5000€ in Spain. She desperately needed glasses, 250€ in Spain... Free in the UK. Her scoliosis back brace, 650€ in Spain, Free in the UK. You'll never know how bad you feel as a parent till you can't afford basic, simple healthcare for your child. My medication cost 24€ per three tablet packet... now it costs me just 7pounds for several, and my husband found a job in just 3 weeks. Even things most retired expats wouldn't notice, 25€ for a meal from mcDonalds for 4, 18pounds in the UK, but when you get twice as much money per month in the UK, that’s a huge difference.

In terms of bills, things are cheaper here and kids clothes are fantastically cheap. Most of all, I don't lie awake at night terrified about how I will feed my kids the next day.

We loved our life in Spain. Our friends, our family. But life for the young working population isn't sustainable, the despair and anger is tangible, engulfing. Most retired expats would have no experience or knowledge of this, making Spain seem like paradise. If we'd been retired, we would never have left because for all intents and purposes, we were Spanish. We were even applying for Spanish nationality at the time. But even with the horrible wet summer, the truth of it is, our life is better in the UK, no matter how much that pains others to hear. 

 

 

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

I live in Devon UK.  Beautiful county, green, picturesque, and wonderful coastline.  BUT, it has rained virtually non stop for months and my legs haven't seen daylight in the UK since last year.  We holiday regularly in Andalucia and just love the sun, food, and the relaxed way of life.  Rarely do the Spanish complain of ill  health and there are few mobility scooters to be seen.  There is a dramatic rise in obesity in the UK; excessively fat people everywhere. There is also clearly a difference in the  attitude towards littering, where a new sub-culture of people here seem not to care about their environment.  Most Spanish towns I have visited are clean and welcoming.  Never have I seen a drunken Spaniard, unlike here where we find empty beer cans in hedgrows, left scattered around the parks, and littering the paths, with youths creating all sorts of anti-social behaviour as a result of alcohol abuse.

I am not in agreement that 'Spanish Bashing' exists in the UK.  I have not heard or read of any, and I would go on to say that the view of Spain and it's people is very good within the UK.  OK, property prices seem to be falling faster there than here, but put that down to sheer overdevelopment and the greed of developers, (not always Spanish), in addition to the general economy.

I completely agree it is easy to view a life in Spain with rose coloured glasses.  Maybe all Brits should subscribe to 'Eye on Spain' for the realism of living over there.  But, anyone with two ounces of intelligence should be able to weigh up the pro's and con's and especially do not make the move if money is tight which is a recipe to certain disaster.  And finally learn the language before moving out there.  How on earth can one expect an easy ride if everything heard or read is a complete mystery?

For my part, about a month a year in the sun and experiencing the wonderful culture as a visitor to Spain is the answer.  I have taken the time to learn the language , albeit limited, to fully enjoy the experience.  I can keep on the property ladder in the UK, freely use the NHS for which I have paid all my working life, and choosing a location to achieve the best retirement experience is easy.

Just off to tuck into a delicious Devonian Cream Tea with whole strawberry jam and lashings of clotted cream at Saunton Sands Hotel along those beautiful green lanes.  We have just had a shower and the smell of newly mown grass is in the air.  Enjoy your day, I will !!! 

 

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

Been here eight years - best move of my life - go back ? - are you nuts ?

       My Rioja calls - luego.

 

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

I stay here in Spain dispite the very hot weather

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

The weather is fantastic especially in the winter and much more beneficial when you are elderly. The people by and large are friendly and very family orientated and respect the elderly. Lots of crime yes, but  compared to the U.K its a walk in the park, especially when you discount the crime caused by lager louts and binge drinkers from the U.K. Filling in forms and the bureaucracy is a nightmare but so it is in the U.K.

Unless my circumstances change, wild horses could not drag me back to the u.k and the british people. {Are there any left now?}

Bob.

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

Dear All,

thank you so much for the open honest posts, they have been wonderful to read and I could not have had my plea for "tell it like it is" better served.

despite my fears, the sun has come out and it looks like the harvest will come in as always.

I know not what has caused it but we are now getting some wonderful Spanish wines in the shops, not cheap but often on "special" if that term has any meaning anymore, some of the riojas have been superb.

My heart went out to the lady forced out for the sake of her children in distress - a truly sick regime by any standards.

Good luck to you all.

Regards

Norman

 

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

I have found this thread very interesting and it only goes to prove that different people have different financial circumstances which I think at the end of the day is the crux of why any country can be "very appealing", that along with the weather if you like to be in the sun a lot which we do.

We bought an apartment 8 yrs ago and have just sold it - why I hear you ask?    Well we are retired and although this is what we bought it for, well that and as an investment for the future in case we didn't want to live there and needed the increase in income to supplement our pension.   In actual fact we considered after retiring last year to go and live in Spain permanently.   We love the local village people, the town is clean, we love the sun and the crime is 0% (whereas where we live in the UK, crime is everywhere, there have been a couple of stabbings in our local town recently and it is no coincidence that we have a huge number of immigrants moved into the area over the last 10-15 yrs through which a number of gang slayings have taken place).  

Putting the crime aside and the weather, Spain has a lot to offer families where there is still the local closeness of communities that we have lost in the UK and which was one reason we chose to buy in a village in Spain where there is at least 50/50 Spanish to English.   Also the local Spanish are very friendly.   Spain reminds me of how the UK used to be about 40 yrs ago before greed and society broke down.

However when things took a downturn in Spain during the last few years many things changed for us.   We sold our house in the UK to clear our mortgage, still with the intention of moving to Spain but we have now had time to consider what such a move would entail.   Spain is now moving much closer to becoming another UK economically, with rising prices, higher costs for medical treatment as Spain withdraws free treatment from pensioner expats and this will I feel (due to the austerity Spain will have to endure) get much worse.  

The main reason though for me (not so much my husband who could live on the moon), is the loss of my family who I am close to.  I spent 3 weeks at our apartment in Spain recently and was already homesick for my daughter who I see every week in the UK.

 The UK is a dumping ground now for immigrants who receive much better help than the indigineous population when they arrive here with their ready made families (something Spain would never do and for which I admire them), so the UK for me is in the dying throes of disappearing altogether with regard to culture and affluence.

My daughter is now planning to move to Costa Del Sol with her partner who has always loved Spain and did have a property there once some years ago.    When she moves later this year we will probably buy a mobile home there, I will never give up my home in the UK despite its faults, it is a safety net if things don't work out there too.   I love Spain so would still consider moving there permanently if my daughter makes a home and a living there.

However, at the end of the day, I know I will always have free medical treatment here in the UK should I need it in old age, some after care if I had no relatives to take care of me, and benefits to help support me if anything happened to my husband which would leave me with £65 per week to live on.   That might sound mercenary but as far as I am concerned I have lived and worked in the UK for 40 years full time even after having my two children and so have paid in to get out if I need it.

Money at the end of the day is what motivates and makes most people's decisions for them, no matter how much they love a country.    Poverty is a great mechanism for removing rose coloured glasses (if that is what you call loving a country).

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

 Jwhite - Great post, well done, you hit the nail on the head (mostly)! Many of the expats I see are now struggling financially here in Spain.

If you have private health insurance and private income you can live anywhere you want without any misgvings or worries.

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

An obvious reason for 'Spain bashing' in the British media is to stop the exodus.  Most indiginous Brits cannot bear to see what has happened to their country with insane multitude of migrants that have been encouraged to take up residence, grabbing housing, jobs and benefits while schools plunge their standards to contend with those who cannot speak English.

The nearest and most attractive country to UK is Spain,as those thousands who have moved there from UK over the past 10-15 years testifies.

As some of the posters to this site have rightly noted, things are terrible in UK with abortion and euthanasia levels hitting the roof - what old person feels safe presenting themselves for care in the NHS hospitals or care homes?  There are some very sinister policies in operation here.

Surveillance is at an all-time high, under the pretext of 'terrorism' and paranoia is the order of the day with our forces.  At least in Spain, there is the feeling that some sanity remains for the time being.

There is also the weather :)

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know

feeling depressed, cant get work cant sell my house even though its going for a lot less than we paid. running out of money to live on, but nothing in uk to go back to. only my kids and they have their own lives..........if we went back it will be in a grotty council estate.......rather be dead.

 Spam post or abuse? Please let us know