185 Million Euros in off plan deposits lost on just five developments. Want to add yours?

Rambi,

I presume you are co-ordinating this with Keith and Ruth's evidence at a high level (i.e.community level)? Has anyone contacted Suzie (Spanish Property Scandal) as she held much evidence also? Could Justin put out a global message to contact you (and Keith and Ruth)  across all the communities?

Many thanks.

I'm not sure about any of the other projects but it is very clear to see on the Finca Parcs site where all the money has gone, and although I fully support the sterling job Keith Rule is doing I think it is a bit misleading to say that there are missing millions when it is very obvious that many more millions have been spent on finished houses standing empty and infrastructure at an advanced stage. Maybe it would be worth thinking about a different heading for your petition which reflects a more accurate discription of the situation.  Before anyone jumps down my throat for making this observation, I too have been a victim of lost deposits over recent years so I know only to well what it feels like to loose your life's savings !!

Hi Rambi,

Can you add the info I sent to you in a P.M. regarding the failure of AIFOS to build our block of apartments called LAS CONCHAS, on the complex called HACIENDA MARINA.  Unfortunetaly I do not have any details of the other buyers who lost out, but if I calculate their loss to be similar to mine, I guess that it would amount to over 1 million euros.

Can I make a suggestion in that it may spread the word wider and quicker if you named the developer for each complex. It could be that the readers may not recognise each complex's name, but they may recognise the developer, especially if they are as well known as AIFOS , and inform others about your site........... just a thought.

It would be good to know the developers and estate agents that have been part of the con.

  I used  estate agent 

Palmera Properties 

developer

Grupo Urbasa

Toddie makes a sound point as it is important to discriminate between empty apartments within communities that remain unsold from those where deposits were placed and the developer was in breach of contract. It is important when presenting figures of this nature that they remain realistic, otherwise we run the risk of evidence being tarnished, which is of no benefit.

To date the evidence gathered by Keith is specific evidence based on actual details, therefore it is essential that this credible method be scrolled out to the various communities and gathered enmasse (this was always Keith's original aim). Keith's petition is well considered and forms a sound basis from which evidence can be analysed and presented to the powers that be. But it depends on everyone concerned to provide that evidence.

I understand your aspirations Rambi and fully appreciate the need to identify the overall figures involved with the off plan deposit injustices, but Keith's petition was formulated to meet those requirements, so the message has to go out to ALL offplan communities that it is in everyone's interest to present their evidence to this petition. www.bankguaranteesinspain.com

If people feel concerned for whatever reason by the detailed nature of this petition, then they can limit their evidence to whatever they feel comfortable providing. For instance they could just identify the developer, the development and the amount of monies deposited with a brief comment at the end explaining the circumstance relating to breach of contract....

Petitioners can present as much or as little evidence as required (including developer,agent haydndj) but obviously the more detail that can be presented the better!

Missing Millions

'I am selling the 'sizzle' not the sausage'

This phrase is well understood. Not just in the world of Marketing where it originated but by most other peolple, (except maybe High Court Judges). I'm not looking to break down the ingredients of our loss. I'm looking to sell the smell, and the sound  of it. 'The sizzle'.

We all know that feeling when we realised we had been conned. It stays with us, gnawing away and I want to lose that, and I assume the same applies to all of you. That is why I started my 'Missing Millions' campaign. I am relatively new to all this and I felt there was another way. I shall use this post to answer some of your questions and to explain why I'm doing it.

It was just over a year ago when I started to research the why, how, and to whom my money had been stolen. The search was even more demoralising when I realised the huge numbers of victims there is. Even worse they had been struggling for years. Some of you have taken the correct and legal routes through the procedures available, but only to find the courts either ruled against you, refused your rights for legal costs if you did win, or you were hampered by appeals by the crooks you were fighting, Even those few who had won still never got their money. Even though there's a law designed for this very situation. We all know this and I know I am preaching to the converted, I apologise.

I pondered for a long time, I signed both Keith and Ruth's petitions. Both 'warriors' uniting and fighting for us all. The work they have undertaken has not been easy. However when I looked at the situation from the 'enemies' point of view I could see how easy it was for them to dismiss us as a few protesters, compared to the huge numbers of succesful  foreign buyers of Spanish property. Fighting them with the conventional weaponry is something they are prepared for and are experts at defending against. 

Thinking outside the box is for me, the only other alternative. Follow the money, its impossible, but it's also impossible for our adversaries and they have no defence to combat our, maybe crude but effective weapon. David and Goliath? I know there are journalists out there lusting for a story of the big bad guys hitting the poor, weak and vulnerable, (that's us by the way). The story is not very newsworthy till you add the magic ingredients, Sex and Money, I tried hard to find a sex angle but thought I'd better stick to something I knew a little about. We are all jaded by media reports of riots etc but a nice juicy story concerning the theft of billions will tickle the palete's of these lusty media folk. (I have one in the wings and her mouth is definitely drooling, and I have only hinted at the 'menu'). The bigger the figures the more impact we create and the louder our voice becomes. Those of you who have read my earlier post are probably thinking you have heard all this from me before. You're right, but it beats doing nothing.

So please do your bit to help me, give me the information I and my lusty friends are craving for and never give up.

I have recently been asked various question and have recieved some suggestions. This is all good news, at least I know  have grabbed a little attention and I thank you. I would also thank those of you who have encouraged me with their kind words.

haydngj

I think it's an excellent Idea to add the name of the developer and estate agent. But it is hard enough to get the information I really need for my purpose. I shall give it serious consideration

Ruth and I have tentatively discussed a possible data base with all the information we have gleaned from our various efforts. But we are just individuals with our own lives giving our own time for the cause we believe in. Ruth has also got an idea that I think is very good and maybe we can pursue these things together. I think a list of 'friendly' MP's or MEP's is a good idea. I would also like a list of all the crooked Judges, Mayors, Town Hall officials, Lawyers etc who have been jailed or prosecuted. I would like a list of all the developments that have been abandoned after the developer has run off with everyones money

All of the above is possible but we need time, your details and your permission, a team of researcers, and because I have only one good eye and one finger a good typist too.

belucky358

Thanks for your input . I will add it to the list as 1 Million. This is a great example of a 'best guess' and is exactly what I need to save me endless hours of work. Thank you belucky. On your other point I have answered most of it in my reply above and as I said it will be considered ifI get the information. I am surprised that a buyer might not know the name of their development although I do know that there are some developers who seem to use more than one name. I'll include it if I have it.. I bought on a development called Bahia Barinas in Murcia and no one seems to have heard of it. Was I the only one???

Toddie

I understand what you are saying but the list (not a petition) is not difinitive or anywhere near accurate, it never can be or ever will be. I would love to be able to quote official figures from the government but they do not have these figures and if they did they would never, ever dare to publish them. I am trying to get a feel of how much money Nationally has been stolen by the Spanish banks and developers. If I work on this till I die I am not going to be able to collect the data for all the unfinished developments in Spain. So when I do finally call it a day and say to the Spanish government, "We as buyers of Spanish property have lost 7.5 billion on just one hundred and fifty sites across Spain" It can only be an educated guess based on the developments I have managed to track down. There will be millions I shall never know about so with the most accurate figures in the world we are still going to be millions of Euro's adrift. But at least we can highlight the size of the Financial Scam and massive disregard for their own laws..

With regard to changing the heading would you rather I said ' A few thousand Euro's have been lost by many home buyers in Spain'  Hardly incorrct but not very attention grabbing.  I'm not sure I can change it now even if I wanted to. I notice you have not offered any real suggestions yourself, Maybe I should think about the afternoon I have just spent working on this site rather than getting on with the real work.

I respectfully suggest you  take your comments re Finca Parcs up with Keith Rule, after all it was he who gave me the figures.

I'm not 'jumping down your theoat' but it seems to me you have no idea of what I'm trying to do, trying to get back the money lost by us all, including your good self.

Your's is a classic example of what  I'm trying to avoid. Discussion that travels nowhere with no facts,help or information in short a complete waste of my valuable time

ads

Hi ads,good to hear from you.

Both Keith and Ruth are aware of  my 'Campaign' and have added their support as I have to theirs. But there is no high level conference or discussions. I am on my own and i would be reluctant to burden them with any more work than that which they have already undertaken. Unfortunately I do not know Suzie so I have no idea if anyone has contacted her or not, I can only contact those who have responded to my posts, But if she has information that is useful and she is able to share it, and help me. I would be most grateful

I wholeheartedly agree with you about getting this campaign across to other Community threads but as with Suzie i do not know Justin and I am intending putting together a letter to him. I also agree with you about Keith's petition it should have been done when it first came out. I believe Keith is going to ask Justin and I did ask Keith if he could put in a word for me. With only about 25 posts to my name I fear my request does not carry much weight. If I had the support of those members who have made a greater contribution than I, my success may be assured. Any ideas?

Thanks to you all.

Rambi

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Hi ads,

 Your post got back on here before mine. Your comments surprised me a little. I don't quite know what to say because I have written some very long posts and I thought my intentions and reasons have been explained, Maybe I have not come across correctly.

I am quite happy to play the Spanish at their own game of misinformation and half truths. The figures they gave to Keith at the Road Show regarding the number of foreign residents in Spain with problems is ludicrous and misses the whole point of Keith's petition and his questions. But what did we have? Little or nothing to counter the Spanish claim. I am sorry Keith I hope you know that I am fully behind you but 300 signatures, vetted, and verified by the Pope is not going to impress anyone. We have got to kick back hard and if we win who cares about the occasional foul?

I am trying to avoid repeating myself . Nobody can be accurate regarding the number of developments unfinished or the numbers of off plan deposits stolen. I believe the figures would be unbelievable. In an ideal world run by the Swiss or Germans maybe, all the figures would be carefully audited and detailed, but equally we would not expect the people who put the figures together to be corrupt, greedy crooks. Going to war with just a flag is doomed to failure. I am looking for a weapon to use and I wouldn't blame any one else for thinking the same.

If anyone want to challenge my figures they will have to produce their own. Even by cheating, lying and bribery the Spanish could not hide the fact that millions has been swindled. I have been conservative with my figures because I know there will be discrepancies but some guess is better than no guess at all. If the guess is big enough with enough evidence no matter how thin the fabric of the evidence it will make news.

"It is estimated that the Spanish banks have swindled up to 7.5 billion..................." Notice the words 'estimated' and 'up to'. This is the kind of thing that gets headlines not "A thousand people signed a petition and many demonstrated outside .........." 

We need to shout louder and fight better if we are to stand any chance of getting our money back. Headlines will attract attention and put our plight firmly in the public eye.

If you don't like what I am doing you can dis- associate yourself from it but you wont stop me. But you would take the money if by my efforts I was successfull. I think that an attack on more than one front is better than standing in a queue politely coughing behind your hand for attention.

It is not my intention to fall out with anyone but it is my intention to fight and if I can see a hole in the enemies defences I will go for it.

I do not apologise for not standing in line.

Rambi.

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I would also add that my signature at the foot of all my posts shows my commitment to Keith's petition. It's a shame that not all his suppoeters are doing what could be so easily done.

Rambi

Missing Millions

I have made the adjustment that have been requeste. Adding the developer and Agent has made it too large to fit on the page. There is obviously a limit to the size of table I can copy and paste. Figure have been rounded down

If anyone disagrees with these figures please contact me with your thoughts. One development has been disputed and I am waiting for a reply from the originator of the claim. If I don't receive a reply to my PM. by Sunday evening. I shall delete it and work from the latest information recsived.

This list is not meant to be a difinitive or accurate listing it is just our Best Guess based on the information we have. There are NO official figures available.

Toddie

Regarding Finca Parcs.......

In almost 5 years of building Cleyton GES SL did complete 36 out of the 617 houses together with most of the infrastructure on Phase 1 (there were due to be 5 Phases in all).  Nobody is living there – there are no LFO’s.

I agree that the construction of the 36 houses and associated infrastructure on Phase 1 did cost more than the estimated 6 million that is ‘missing’.  But it was up to the developer and bank to finance the building of Phase 1 – not those of us who reserved on later phases.

Most of us who are at serious risk of losing our money reserved on Phases 3, 4 and 5.  We did not agree to be unsecured investors in the project!!  Our money should have been protected under Spanish Law, LEY 57/68, just the same as the purchasers on Phase 1.

However many millions were spent on infrastructure and the 36 houses that now stand empty on Phase 1 is of no interest to us.  We are not interested in how much money Cleyton GES lost or how much money CAM Bank are at risk of losing.  That is their problem which they must deal with in their own way.

The simple fact is our money should have been protected with the legally required Bank Guarantees and held in a Special Account in accordance with Spanish Law.  The fact is - it wasn't - so to us and according to Spanish Law - our money is still ‘missing’!

Kind regards

Keith

Good answer Keith.

Rambi

IMHO it's essential for everyone to add their evidence to Keith's petition www.bankguaranteesinspain.com for this to move forward in a credible and accountable fashion.

This is a remarkably effective vehicle if only everyone concerned would recognise the fact, so the message has to be spread far and wide to all offplan communities for this to prove an effective tool in our efforts to ensure recompense according to existing laws of the land.

Where systemic failure exists within the justice system by what ever means (this includes obstructive delays with no time constraints in place to ensure that judgements are enforced ) then this too should be tackled by bringing this to the attention of the EU Commission and the EU Parliament. This is an essential element to the problems that we are confronted with, as there is no point to a successful legal judgement, whether it be against a Bank, a developer, a law firm, whatever, if that judgement is not subsequently enforced. This element of systemic failure should be tackled hand in hand with Keith's petition and if the Spanish authorities refuse to address these grave claims from within, then we will continue to look to the EU for an adequate compensation structure, via infringement procedures or use of budgetary authority, or whatever means is at their disposal. 

Likewise with the independant nature of judicial resolutions. These must be seen to be independent of political interference, and where this is brought into question it requires further investigation, which then relies upon yet more evidence.  Ruth's petition is also a strong vehicle in this regard.
http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/stop-the-spanish-property-roadshow-open-letter-to-davi.htm

All of these options however depend upon evidence and everyone is equally responsible to provide that evidence. Apathy will only play into the hands of those who we wish to make accountable, depending on the individual circumstance relating to offplan purchase, as there are many different circumstances at play here, which all deserve exposure.

Let's spread the message as far as possible and use Keith and Ruth's existing petitions to gain the real evidence to substantiate our claims.

Not sure of the figures but Aifos Hipodromo Mijas is a large urbanisation that was stopped at a very late stage after selling off most of the units.

Sorry, I missed the final letter on the link to Ruth's petition. It should read

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/stop-the-spanish-property-roadshow-open-letter-to-davi.html

Me to!!! ACC builder Huma 38 k almost house in UK thanks to this

Hi trudge,

Can you fill us in with a few more details, I think you are saying you have lost 38,000 euros.........?????

Hi Rambi, well done on starting this survey, i like the possible impact that this will have.

I haven't read trough the whole thread but the info that i think you want is below:-

Development - Cortijo de Torreblanca;

Developer - Aifos;

Number of properties unbuilt - 950 (approx);

Average deposit amount - €75,000 (approx);

Total 'missing millions' = €71,250,000.

Is that correct?

Hi

Well done on this thread, the agent (if that is what you would like to call them) for Estepona Beach and Country Club is Ocean View Properties.

Jojan

Thanks all,

jojan

I shall add these details to the listing. Thanks for your support.

Fazarelli

Spot on, a perfect example of how to do it right. I know that Aifos is one of the biggest crooks out there and to date I have only a million or so down for him, this helps to redress the balance but only by a little. By the way do you know if the unbuilt properties were all sold off plan, or is that your feeling. I'm happy to go with your feelings if it is, but I have been accused of gathering false information and therefore producing lies that will be found out and discredit the efforts of all.

This is not the case I am quite happy to present my figures for what they are and will ask any challenger to produce the correct figures. We all know this to be impossible.

Rambi.

Hi Rambi,

Thanks for your efforts and please see PM for further details.

The unbuilt properties were virtually all sold. The Aifos website, back in 2008 ish, was down to the last 2 or 3 dozen out of a total of nearly 1000 (don't know exact figure). So i'd say 950 unbuilt with deposits paid is reasonably accurate.

What i find interesting about the situation here (and probably in many hundreds more developments in Spain) is that the properties were approx. 50-60% complete, and approx €70M represents 40% of the final price, therefore another 60% (received in mortgages) would introduce another €105M into the Spanish economy (albeit via the banks). Surely another developer would be willing to take on a half built development and finish it off for substantially less than the €105M virtually guaranteed from the mortgages?

I know this is a simplistic view and maybe a lot of the original investors might not now be in a position to start a new mortgage  but it still makes you think. What about all those people who have gone through the courts to have their contracts cancelled, is this paving the way for a developer/large investor buying the 'asset' through the liquidation process and frezing the original investors out?

Just a thought that's been niggling at me for  while.