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You have definitely had the worst run of bad luck on all fronts. Although I know many others are also caught up in OVP nightmare.
Are you now an unsecured creditor against Aifos in whatever state they are (liquidation/receivorship) etc? But there is never going to be anything there for unsecured creditors?
Is the bank guarantee laws now your only real hope of ever getting anything back.
I always tell people never to hand over one cent or penny even at the risk of losing the property. Proceed as quickly as possible to completion/notary. In Spain trust no one and contracts/guarantees are not worth the paper they are written on.
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Dear All,
Not sure that luck had anything to do with the scam that has caught thousands, if you cannot trust a law firm to at least check anything at all in the transaction, before they hand your money over, money that you have only entrusted them with because they are supposed to be honest, upright, insured etc. etc.
It is simply professional crime, the scourge of the planet.
Regards
Norman
_______________________
N. Sands
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Faro
yes, we are just Aifos creditors now, a bit higher on the list because of our win in court, but still well down. Our court embargo is now void because of the court delay as is of course the amount we were awarded in court plus the interest and amount granted for personal stress and bad health due to being cheated so badly for so long.
I would think the BG laws are our only hope unless some compensation for those cheated by the court delays is introduced by someone who is honest enough to accept responsability for the courts injustice to me. Can you see that happening without outside intervention though?.
Despite much talk about taking banks to court over not having a BG, there seems little evidence that it would mean anything but years more expensive court battles with appeal after appeal, and no great odds of a win even after that due to the shame of Spain that goes under the name 'justice system??' My lawyer at Lawbird has said it's very unkikely we would win in court for not being provided a BG.
Doesn't look good for me does it?
Norman
It is indeed professional crime, and sadly in my case and many many others, at all levels. That is the real crime, in that those we have to have legal trust in to stand a chance of justice have been allowed to abuse their position. I can't afford to risk more litigation so I have nowhere else to turn apart from petitions, letter writing to MEP's and of course the moral support of some lovely people on this forum, and another one I don't use much these days. The situation is a disgrace and goes against everything that's right.
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goodstich
I'm not a great fan of petitions. I would suggest public protests. Protest at every Spanish trade fair (property or otherwise) and political event. But getting that kind of support is very difficult. Also expats in Spain could unite and get elected but most don't register or vote. United expats could probably take most of Andalucia - certainly most of the coastal towns!
Imagine if you could muster enough support to really disrupt trade shows and warning innocent buyers of what lies ahead in Spain and that they will be robbed at every step including the tax authorities imposing artificial values to extract more tax from buyers or sellers. Block access to the Excel centre in London or the RDS in Dublin. I would join you in London for that.
I have no trust of either Spanish or English involved in property in Spain. With the benefit of hindsight we saw how quickly all the big names fell. Some re-branded and left behind the bad each blaming the other. But at the end of the day it was greed and commissions and sadly the commission game continues which still drives up prices.
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Faro
I really don't know the answer?, and I'm so tired of it all. I think protest needs to be at the door of the Spanish justice system and our own and EU ministers if anywhere?, as I think protesters at trade fairs and the like might just be written off as bitter old nutters with nothing better to do, though I agree it would be great to see in large enough numbers. I feel that somehow we have make those responsible for injustice at all levels answer to their actions (or lack of them), but in the meantime some of the funds intended for Spain from the EU, should be re-directed to those ultimately cheated by the Spanish government in the form of corruption, lack of regulation and court delays. I know that's been tried, but a loophole was found (suprise suprise!). The response from the UK MEP'S, the UK government, the Spanish government etc, leaves me with little faith left, but we have to keep going at them until they do something right for all those wronged now, not in 5-10-15 years?.
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maybe a 2 pronged approach!
The MEP/EU/Justice etc is all well and good and might help but it is a bit behind the scenes. At best you get bland letters of sympathy and support but unless it suits some election motive probably never make the agenda for serious discussion - maybe the odd question but .... any action??
But public demonstrations wherever also focus the mind and maybe hit them more where it hurts. With enough supporters it might be somewhat effective?
Also protest at Spanish courts but most affected people seem not to reside in Spain for the obvious reason their money was taken and they got no property in Spain!
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Dear Goodstitch +,
given the state of Spain's property prices have you actually lost any money?
would you have not been financially worse off if the apartment had been built and you had completed purchase?
especially if it had been built in the usual slapdash fashion.
are you not better off out of it?
I have lost far more than you but am still better off out of it, by my estimation.
What bothers me is the criminal deceit on the part of the "professionals", they knew full well that they were lying and I do not see how such a crime can be time-barred?
As to recompense is there any mileage in suggesting a government backed credit with funds only to be used in Spain for another purchase?
Wishful thinking perhaps but with possibly more chance than trying to persuade the whole Spanish Justice system that they have been lazy at best.
As to protest I will happily join if ever the shows return to Excel.
I would even support a stand there to vet free of charge any purchasers proposals.
Perhaps EOS or others could support such a stand?
Regards
Norman
_______________________
N. Sands
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"As to recompense is there any mileage in suggesting a government backed credit with funds only to be used in Spain for another purchase? "
I would no more consider that a security than the Bank Guarantee we were promised in our contract.
Also such compromise would make no effect on the injustices, nor make those responsible (whoever they may be) accountable for their actions.
In fact it would probably suit the government that fails to provide competent justice administration system, the developers who flout the law with their breach of contracts, the agents who made false promisesin league with developers/lawyers, the lawyers who failed to provide a legal contract linking the Bank details and special account details where deposited monies were to be placed, the banks who failed to provide or honour BG's etc etc
A non starter.
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We mainly just need somone who can make changes by whatever means?, to have the balls and the will to use common sense and therefore make it possible for those cheated by failures in the justice system to get real justice by getting their money back now without stupid and farcical court cases, appeals, delays etc. The guilty parties can then thrash out who owes who in their own time!
There seems to be a complete lack of bodies of regulation who recognise very obvious wrong doing, and regulate in favour of the victim, without the victim having to take their very obvious case of wrong doing to court and facing the farce, expense and years of injustice that so often follows in Spain.
What needs doing is so bloody obvious, but the denial by the Spanish authorities is very much part of the corruption sadly, and that should be recognised by those in power in the UK and EU.
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ads
Very thorough work as always.
But can I just ask are we sure any details given will not somehow end up in the hands of ambulance chasers who somehow always seem to get their hands on this type of information and then set about extracting money from victims.
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Faro
I'm sure some details will, but I think those affected are well aware of false promise and hopes. We know there are laws in place, and justice is possible in theory, but ubtil we see a significant number of cases not only won, but with money back in the victims bank account, then I think ambulance chasers will be treated as just that.
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Good point. but It's essential that the general and detailed information about the abuses gets through to those in power. To those who can follow up our concerns and establish a compensation fund if the problems identified within the Spanish legal and real estate system are not resolved within a reasonable timeframe.
What is essential is that those who are following this situation ensure that they acquire the knowledge from those who are the most experienced in this field, those who are actually researching in great detail and putting this knowledge into action. It's early days of course, but in the interim lets hope that those with experience will pass on their knowledge to others, to work together, to have a common goal instead of being divisive. The aim is to ensure that where possible justice prevails for all and most importantly that it can be prevented from happening again (hence the need for reform).
As Goodstich observes the proof will be in the pudding so to speak. Unfortunately the problems associated with the administration of justice are preventing any successful recompense as things stand right now. So this has to be a priority if we are to make headway. Hence the need for a compensation fund if change does not come from within. We have to get the administration of justice working effectively and fairly before any of us can feel confident of success. And until this happens it's perfectly understandable that many will be loathe to proceed with legal action. So it's in everyones interest to confirm the realities and the details to those in power. A pre-requisite if you will to success.
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Hi virginian
yes, gives hope for those provided with a BG.
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Dear All,
long experienced ex-pats tell that nothing, repeat nothing, will shift the Spanish from their chosen path unless their income is directly affected.
to move the Spanish you will have to withhold their EU gravy train funds.
just as the "happy" ex-pats despise us victims, so we in turn are showing little interest in organising to warn any new purchasers should a recovery here provide any.
Ads will only accept a complete overhaul of the country and its "justice" system plus the same for the EU as a whole.
Unlikely in any foreseeable lifespan, hers included.
Goodstitch is reluctant to acknowledge his good financial fortune in Aifos's failure to supply.
Even long established contented ex-pats are decamping because of the "system" without financial loss.
Justin will be following once he can sell his property? - watch this space.
The future is Techno's ex-pats clubhouse perhaps?
What a mess with perhaps a glimmer of hope for newer purchasers.
Regards
Norman
_______________________
N. Sands
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norman said
''Goodstitch is reluctant to acknowledge his good financial fortune in Aifos's failure to supply.''
I think you choose to miss the point ?. Yes, as it happens, had I complteted, I would have been worse off in the current property market, but that could well change when the market recovers, and do you really think that after all this time, money and stress you know i've endured, that I would have chosen this path???. For heavens sake, Iv'e been to hell and back being screwed not by one company of crooks, by by four and then the justice system!! Please at least have the humanity to recognise that, and give me some credit for trying to get justice for myself and others, and offering advice where possible.
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norman's point has some truth had goodstitch bought as an investemnt but if he bought to enjoy then valuation really does not enter the equation.
I have no idea if my property is worth more or less than I paid for it as I have no intention of selling.
But I would be very angry if I had handed over my money and got absolutely nothing in return.
One of the problems in Spain was people buying for investment purposes rather than enjoyment.
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Faro
yes, i was robbed by crooks at the end of the day, like so many others. The fact many should be able to claim as the law was clearly broken by the banks in question for not even providing a BG, is what we need to work towards. Same old story though in Spain, as soon as you find the guilty party, there is so often a loohole that protects them, and goes against the victim!
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