baby car seats

Norman - you asked how you might join the private lists and get some information.  I'm not a member of these as I'm not an owner.  I'm sure others here can tell you how to join. 

Myne - There are plenty of laws in Spain to protect the consumer.  Unfortunately the protection of these laws does not appear to be used often enough.  A major problem in this regard is the poor advice offered by many solicitors. If you read the local press in the Costa you will notice plenty of stories about the close relationships between legal firms and developers.

Who suggested that snagging in Spain happens after completion?  If there are some major things wrong with your apartment you should not have been advised to complete until they were rectified to your satisfaction.

In Spain the product that is contracted for delivery is deemed to be that outlined in the contract as well as any advertisements, brochures, etc.  Therefore, if the apartment that is delivered is in a complex missing say a sports centre and a sports centre was promised in the brochure then this is effectively a breach of contract.  Otherwise there would be no protection against mis-selling.

I would also question the assertion that you wouldn't have much chance of success.  From what I understand of the situation the law would be very much in your favour.  But you should seek out good legal advice to confirm this.

This message was last edited by houseclearou on 8/1/2007.

Hi All, I rang the British Consul in Malaga this am. They said that if British subjects are having problems with development sites they should report it to the Consul ie the more compaints they get they will 'look into the problems'........anyone else heard about this or tried to do anything via them?

 

 

All

As documented in the minutes of 10th April , once all the communities have a president and committie it is hoped that there will be representative from these communities that will work together as a group representatiing the community of owners and work together incompiling info against the marketing company ,developer and builders with the possibility of making a joint effort of persuing actyion through courts togther as one . I tihnk there are many owners that felt they could not go it alone but would welcome this approach.  It is awaiting game until PM3 president is elected in Nov but I would hope a working party could get together to work.................

 

So to Norman I'm surprised you missed this in an earler thread is this selective thread memory .   Huff and puff I could blow your house down!!   

But...Interlaken has been bought by a larger developer....won't that affect any legal action?

Houseclearou - We are always hearing on these threads that there are laws to help us, but honestly we have approached 3 different lawyers now and although the laws must be there, noone seems keen to take it on without a huge amount of cash being thrown at them again.  Latest quote from yesterday was £3,000 up front and costs at £256 per hour.  The other thing we were told, is that we only have 1 year from completion to take any action.  We are reluctant to really spend more money when we are not sure that we can even  trust the solicitors. 

Honestly I do feel stupid every time someone points out that we shouldn't have completed before we were satisfied, but we were told we would lose the deposit, not just by MLH/Interlaken etc but also two separate solicitors,  first one we sacked but then the next one said exactly the same thing and said that only if a dwelling is deemed uninhabitable can completion be delayed.  So items like, no roof, extreme damp, missing windows etc would apply, but just the "minor" things like no swimming pool and sports complex, no locking windows or doors, cracked sinks, crappy fittings and finish just weren't enough to delay the completion without losing the deposit.

By the way, if you are not a purchaser then who are you?  And how do you know what is legal and what's not if you haven't been through this process like the rest of us.  Not trying to be rude, just interested.

Norman - Have you been told that you have lost your deposit due to not completing?  Have you infact lost your apartment now and it's back up for sale again, or are they trying to resell it for you?

Gill - Who has bought Interlaken?

Myne -

Firstly you don't need to go to a solicitor to invoke the laws that protect consumers.  For example, you could shout and stomp your feet at the office of the developer until you get what you want, you could go to the local consumer affairs office and report your grievances or you could report the solicitors that have given you poor advice or ...

If you do decide to go to a solicitor then their costs are relative.  If you do win your case then you may well be awarded legal costs. Winning your case could also mean that you can withdraw from the contract or ensure that all wrongs are put right, etc.

Find yourself a good independant solicitor.  If the developer is not delivering substantially on what was promised then refuse to complete and if necessary take a case against them.  The solicitor will ensure that your deposit is safe.  As I have already said the law sees brochures, advertisements etc as forming part of the promise.       

I have been through the process of purchasing in Spain on a number of occasions.  The use of a good solicitor is critical.  You also have to be aggressive in standing up for your rights. 

Dear All,

I am particularly appreciative of the p.m. received from one whose posts I have admired. If only you were leading the working party that is "hopefully" to be set up, perhaps there would then be some real action in this thread for me to support.

Myne - my lawyer assures me that he is fully protecting my position even though the contract has been rescinded and my deposit not returned. Though I feel that he would much rather that I relented and completed, as so many others have done.

The 425,000 E property is now for sale at 400,000 E including free air conditioning (which was always supposed to be included anyway) plus a free 10,000 E furniture package. I don't know whether the "highest luxury" marketing tag is still current.

Brutus - I don't believe I have missed anything, I note your "hopes" for future action, but am not convinced that you will ever resolve to act. I do hope it will not be like your "puff into print" and never happen. I really do, but unfortunately I am not convinced by the determination you have shown to date. I do though keep hoping and hoping.

Houseclearou - can you not name a couple of lawyers who can be trusted and not exploitive?

Nicholas - whilst my personal circumstances may be much sadder than your own, what really dismays me is the endemic corruption and the extent that qualified professionals including lawyers are deeply embroiled. That really sickens me I am afraid.

Regards to all as always

Norman

Hi Norman

To do business on the Costa you need to understand how the system works there.  It is a relatively small region and business is conducted largely through contacts.  These circles of contacts result in favours being received and returned.  Business is very often exchanged in this fashion.  An example would be a developer recommending to buyers the services of a particular legal firm.  Once this happens it is questionable whether the loyalties of the solicitor lie with the developer or the buyer i.e. the client.  If you also throw the Hispanic spirit into the mix then you may begin to understand a lot of what happens there.  I believe a lot of the locals wouldn't see this as corruption but simply a fact of life.  If you're to survive in this environment you you must be aggressive in standing up and protecting yourself.    

If I was to select a solicitor then I would stray away from any recommended by developers and estate agents.  I would also tend to avoid those firms that concentrate on assisting foreign buyers.  My experience is that many of these firms tend to be either linked with developers or lazy.  They are used to fobing off foreign buyers and don't wish to exert themselves too much in return for their fee.  If you are considering litigation then of course you may need to find a firm that specialises in litigation rather than conveyance.  Not all firms do both.  I'm not going to recommend someone here but you will see recommendations from buyers posted on message boards from time to time.  For example, I heard some recommend the services of a solicitor who regularly posts on this website and who seems to talk a lot of sense.  However, interview the prospective solicitor before you decide to proceed with their services.  Tell them what you want to do and ask for their response.

 

25 May 2007 12:47 PM Gillespie Adosado I'm in Costa Calida Area I've made 391 posts Send private message to Gillespie	The thing to remember goodstich is - Spain, like Italy has not had a democratic government for very long.  It was run by Franco for many years, and generations of people had to live in black market economies for years.  the only way to get a little extra was to cheat or take it off someone. The same thing happens in the supposedly new Eastern European countries,  Bulgaria, Serbia, Romania.....the list goes on. Take Iraq or Afghanistan for example, the western governments think they can parachute democracy in over night.  It just isn´t  possible, it takes many generations before true democracy gets a hold. Politicians, police, armed services and businesses in these countries only survived through corruption, It would be impossible for them to adapt so quickly.  To change the mentality of a nation takes at least 1 generation.  Spain has changed a lot in the last 30 years but the generation in power right now still remember the old Franco ways, some even prefer them, it´s the only way they know how. Buying a property in such a regime is fine provided you are aware of the above and look out for the warning signs. Here endeth the lesson on European Politics! _______________________ "The problem with realising your dream is that it becomes reality, and reality is what you were escaping in the first place." - Me
25 May 2007 1:20 PM goodstich44 Adosado I've made 222 posts Send private message to goodstich44	Gillespie yes, i sympathise with the attitude to a point, but where i think it falls foul, is when a developer/agent/lawyer is found to be guilty, and it is still not dealt with in the right way?   Why should people have to go through long and expensive court battles against crooks, when often the case is very  clear to any fair thinking judge?  Whatever the countries history, i don't think there is any exuse for corruption and lies against  decent honest people, it's ruining Spain, and needs to change fast.
25 May 2007 1:49 PM Gillespie Adosado I'm in Costa Calida Area I've made 391 posts Send private message to Gillespie	Quote goodstitch " Whatever the countries history, i don't think there is any exuse for corruption and lies against  decent honest people, it's ruining Spain, and needs to change fast." That´s my whole point goodstitch, It´s not "whatever the counties history" it´s "because" of the countries history that it´s people behave as they do, Judges, lawyers, mayors, land owners, builders were not exempt from Franco´s regime, they effectively ran it! It has ruined Spain for us incomers, but to the indiginous population they have seen a huge improvement, (though I agree there is loads more to do). Spain is slowly improving it´s act, but it will take years for it to catch up with the UK (If ever) You only need to look at a game of football between a Mediterranean team and a Northern European team to see that cheating is inbread. British people are not exempt from corruption and I don´t just mean politics, the difference is, it´s done in a language we understand and resolved by a legal system we are familiar with.  Just watch "Watchdog" or House of Horrors plus Whistleblower to see that Spain isn´t the only place in Europe to get ripped off.

 

Dear All,

Thanks for the lesson.

There would seem to be little profit in taking a corrupt individual before a corrupt judge and system. 

So most of you knew, all the time and that is why you are so eager to take blame yourselves and not blame the corrupt agents, advisers and lawyers you employed.

You knew all this and yet still paid up and completed meekly, as directed. Wow you must be totally barmey or you are anticipating a golden egg of immense proportions.

You don't seem to me to be investors at all, just people with money to burn, no wonder you are being targetted by burglars on a daily basis, they are obviosly keen to take share where the tax man may have failed.

Given the facts, one wonders who are the worst criminals, your advisers or your burglars?

Even if you ever resolve to puff together as a group, which I strongly doubt, and you eventually summon up enough puff to stir a slight breeze, then MLH will promptly change it's name and disappear or some such, and all your secrecy will have been in vain. I am afraid you will one day have to face the fact that you have been divided and will now be ruled for the duration of your very limited resolve, just as your advisers intended.

Sorry I cannot join you my limited life savings were very hard earned.

Good luck and goodbye to this thread.

Regards to all

Norman

 

 

Just for the record, way back in April I offered a copy of the contract in English and a number of people took me up on the offer, including one Norman Sands.  Guess who was the only one not to reply with a thank you ?  Seems to confirm that courtesy to others isn't one of his strengths.

Dear All,

sorry, sorry, sorry to Hampos and his "record".

What a truly terrible omission, but does this add anything to the thread??????????

Goodbye once again.

Regards and thanks to everyone as always (most especially Hampos)

Norman

Hi,

 

I just found out that Ocean View Homes SL is now part of a bigger company called Worldwide Property Portfolio or similar, and is now building in Cape Verde.......using Casares del Sol as an example of their build!!!!!!!

 

 

I have brochures etc ...............anyone want to know more......is this an angle to use ie the newspapers or something.

 

I am suffering from Depression and all this doesn't help! I also have a fight on my hands with the purchaser developer of my Majestic site on La Condesa de Mijas Golf.......Why did I ever visit the Property Show in 2004! I could kick myself!!!! 

Dear All,

Well, well, well, what a turn up for the "record".

Perhaps, thanks to Maria and her anonymous client, we don't have to accept downright rubbish as highest luxury after all.

Perhaps we can stop pretending that some sunshine turns everything into gold.

Perhaps Hampos may be able to oblige with a translation of the judgement, that would be very very interesting.

Perhaps Mike now has his judgement also and can add something.

Are we on a roll at last???

Regards to all.

Norman

Dear Norman:

Yes, for sure!

Maria 

This message was last edited by mariadecastro on 12/11/2007.

This message was last edited by mariadecastro on 12/11/2007.

Decission has been ruled in  favour of  a disatisfied claimer in this development: ( delay, lack of commercial and sports center, mainly), the Judge is asking Interlaken to pay deposits, interests and legal costs. Good precedent.

 

A good precedent ?

How many have not completed on this development and should this be the precedent for future rulings is this developer able to make the payments of return of deposits etc .

They will be down probably 10% on selling commisions and possibly heavy in dept paying the mortgage without completions.

Seems if this is the precedence then  going to the wall will be the only option left for some developers,then what for those with deposits ?

 

Dan

Hello Norman,

You said in your last post..............................

Perhaps Mike now has his judgement also and can add something.
I'm presuming you are referring to me " Mike T " Norman?

We have had no positive news yet about our Group court action concerning our  Marbella Hill View development. Several individual cases heard in Cordoba where the Developer is based where lost I'm afraid!! Two of the investors took their case to court much too early after hearing about the delays with completion. Also, allowing the case to be heard in the developers home town just seems crazy to me!!
We had a hearing in Marbella in October with little progress made and the full Trial date has been set for March 2008. However, We have recently been offered some reasonable compensation "off the Record"  Via their solicitors so they must think we have put a strong case together?

I've followed the saga of your development issues for the past 18 months as I know two of the investors at Casares quite well. Your problems are so typical of many developments on the CDS where the Developer just hasn't delivered what was promised!
We feel that we've put together a first class case to the courts yet  winning cases still appears to be a bit of a lottery  in Marbella. There are actually 13 courts in Marbella and success can very much depend on the attitude of the Judge allocated to your case!!
Attempting to put together a group action to take on your Developer "no matter how worthy" would I feel at this stage be a daunting task in spite of the excellent news of a successful claim?
It took us many months of dialogue, meetings in London and Marbella  and then interviewing half a dozen prospective lawyers before we could reach an agreement as a group to persue our case through the courts.
Our legal fees including surveyors and architect costs have already topped £100,000 to date which is an enormous amount of money to invest with absolutely no guarantee of success!!

If there are still investors out there intent on fighting for compensation or return of their investments then you must try to work together as a group. This fabulous forum facility that Justin's put together gives everyone the chance to voice their concerns and opinions. BUT, In my experience it often takes one or two individuals who are absolutely committed. to building a case, developing an action group and then instructing experienced lawyers to take them on!

This message was last edited by miket on 12/14/2007.

 

Thank you Mike,

Is it not a fact that your "first class case" is now in the public domain? If so can you not share it with this excellent forum?

I find it difficult to imagine how you have run up a £100,000 plus bill for routine legal fees plus a couple of visual only surveys.

It all seems way over the top.

Whilst I accept my new found education from this forum about how "business" is carried out in Spain, which tells me that you are right in your verdict on the procedure of the "individual cases", nevertheless what honest knowledgeable local lawyer would have advised in this way? Also, why did the complainants proceed independently of your group? Is it the "secrecy thing" raising its ugly head again? We should all follow Justin’s excellent motto, which is to tell it like it is, don't you think?

Maria tells us that it was mainly the missing items which carried the day, you say our site is typical so what do you think is carrying the day for you?

Does the fact that it is difficult to find a single example of the concrete and rendering that is strong enough to meet specification, not count at all? Don't these building have to be weather and waterproof? Where is the "luxury" of being dehumidifier dependent in a cramped little apartment?

Sorry to press you, but we all need to know.

Regards

Norman