baby car seats

Dear kinabalu,

Thank you for the input.

Interesting to hear the view of someone who was not conned into this "investment" by a specialist investment agent, as I was. Had I known that you should not believe more than 10% of what a "dream" agent tells you! Had I even known that it was the practice to pay these agents huge commissions early, at contract stage, I wouldn't have believed even the 10%, as I have discovered, they will tell you any lie at all to get you to sign that contract. Mine even told me that prices had risen by 85,000 euros at contract stage. The hugely disappointing thing is that this lie was confirmed by the lawyers who do not seem interested in their client's interest, they just seem to be conveyancing clerks more in the employ of the developer than the unfortunate "client".

Clearly you were not "conned" at all and as an admitted dreamer you can afford to complete now under known terms, known and publicised by this excellent website. You do not mention and are therefore not concerned at the reduced size and specification, at the dangerous spiral staircase, etc etc etc, you do not even mention the open public urbanisation instead of the closed holiday complex. Then by all means go ahead and complete as Noddy has done, as you say your eyes are open and you can clearly support the investment whatever. Go ahead, make the best of it and enjoy, hopefully without repentance.

Who knows, perhaps Emma may one day join you, the more satisfied owners there are, the better for the site as a whole. Will you all be competing for the same reduced rental market that you describe? I am afraid in my reduced circumstances the thought of competing for rentals with the obviously well off is not an attractive prospect.

Though naturally naive by nature, life has taught me to be very wary of the "enthusiast", who can be equally as dangerous as the "conman".

As a point of fact, is the expected facilities the actual promised facilities for this site, or those Ian has pointed out of the Aparthotel complex, that we may perhaps be allowed to use by some arrangement not included in the contract?

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Actual real information is still difficult to obtain but I am  perservering as much as possible. I propose visiting soon to test the actual concrete and render used in this construction.

Best wishes to all.

Norman

 

 

 

 

This message was last edited by normansands on 7/7/2007.

This message was last edited by normansands on 7/7/2007.

This message was last edited by normansands on 7/7/2007.

This message was last edited by normansands on 7/7/2007.

norman.

in the uk people take on average 90mins to decide on a house puchase for their family home 24/7, often new build from large companies whose workmanship is in some cases worse than in spain.everyone is aware of the vagaries of market forces , which no individual even goverment has total control over or indeed interest rates . most of us have accepted certain problems and are prepared to pull together to acheive our goals. the area is certainly one of the better areas on the coast and the properties we purchased some of the cheapest, obviously you wouldnt get your money back if you sold today, but this scerario has happened in the uk with its peaks and troughs, but surely you dont only just listen to estate agents with there biased opinions.i wish you good luck with your claim,but i have no issue with the structural work on my block(30)its the little bits that niggle me but i try and look at the bigger picture.

not everyone feels conned, perhaps a shade naive

i go on eyeon spain for information and find out whats going on not to hear someone become more bitter and twisted with evey posting so cheer up norman,

noddy

Dear Noddy,

thank you for your advice, but I would remind you that it was only a short while ago that you were looking for a surveyor for your purchase. Have you had a survey done? What is it that has satisfied you? Do you know how weak the structural concrete and the cement render is?

"i have no issue with the structural work on my block(30)its the little bits that niggle me but i try and look at the bigger picture"

If you have not had a survey done, how is this satisfaction achieved? Have you done any tests?

What is this bigger picture, is it part of the contract, are you suggesting that shoddy unsatisfactory building work is some how acceptable to you by your consideration of other factors, even off site factors?

Are you offering your block for a concrete test?

I could perhaps understand your advice if I had an accident and hurt myself, accidents can happen. Why in all reason should you advise me to cheer up when I have been tricked, cheated and conned out of my life's savings? I find it quite bizarre.

If you are so secure in what you have done and you have not been misled, why should you need to be cheered up by my or anyone else's postings? It just does not make any sense, does it?

However if it helps, please cheer up and make the best of things. Clearly your finacial position is secure and does not bother you. I am afraid that I am not so lucky, but please do not let that affect you, stay cheerful.

Best Regards

Norman.

 

A few points ...

If you feel you paid for something superior to what was delivered then whether you feel conned or not is irrelevant .. you were conned! 

I previously posted concerns about structural elements of some blocks.  I notice that at least one area around a swimming pool is now reported to be sinking.  Is this the start of a litany of structural issues? 

Finally, I wish to repeat that I know of many buyers that are taking cases against the developer.  However, like anyone involved in litigation I don't expect them to be shouting from the rooftops on a forum like this.  There are good independent lawyers that strongly feel the developer have a case to answer. 

Hi to one and all

can we have some "end product" of this thread? I am reasonably happy with our apartment (the micro level) but am aware of the macro / general issues. Has anyone considered a "class action"? I would support (and get involved in) such an action founded on investigation and expert support  for i clear cut issues / defects / contractual failings. I want what I am entitled to - I will never know what this is left to my own devices - but I hope that the new committee of PM2 will go a long way towards shedding light on this. Unless someone comes up with a better / more pragmatic approach I will wait until there is something to put my energies into!!

Regards to all

Dear All,

I am of course disappointed with the fact that no real information is to be shared. The ship-sinking quantity of evidence is still secret.

This message was last edited by normansands on 7/10/2007.

As a Chartered Engineer with over 30 years experience I recognise some technical merit in the previous posting but consider it lacks balance. Off plan developments, whether in Spain or Ireland/Britain are always less than perfect, hence the 10year structural guarantee schemes and consumer laws requiring fitness for purpose. For residents like us in Block 15, We are reasonably happy that we will enjoy our holiday home and the area's amenities. However we support the President in engaging expert Architect and pursuing IL to remedy defects and shortcomings. This combined with prioritised investment in the site will produce an attractive holiday site. This approach cannot help someone who for good reasons wants to establish breach of contract. That will require a higher burden of proof and legal/professional resources. The 2 objectives should not be confused and the Presidents mandate is clearly to reflects the best interests of the owners. We strongly support and are greatly encouraged by the start made. None of this is to disparage or lack sympathy for those who decide not to complete and seek to void the contract. That is their choice and they must do what is needed to follow through on it.

As regards Brutus photos, we have a similar layout which is pleasant without being exactly spacious. Having successfully snagged , cleaned and furnished it we look forward to completion of the aparthotel, commercial centre and to enjoying the beach, golf and great restaurants in the area.

Jerry - As a chartered engineer I can't see how you can disagree with the gist of Norman's description of methods for the onsite testing of concrete and cement.  Personally, I have seen structural cracks in stairwells during the building of at least one block.  I have seen external and internal dampness problems.  I have seen signs of soil subsidence.  I recently read that at least one swimming pool area is reported to be sinking.  These are observations and not hypothetical situations.  On the other hand completion of the commercial centre, indoor sports centre, etc. is hopeful thinking - and I do truely hope these will be completed as otherwise the price of the units will be further depreciated.

Any development will of course by its nature be less than perfect.  But there is no reason for an off-plan development to be of lower quality than any other nor is it an excuse for buyers to accept an inferior product.  The developer should deliver what was promised.  The laws of science and the craft of building, surveying, etc. don't change depending on the timing of the purchase contract in relation to the build.  If you were a chartered civil engineer would you advise a client to proceed with a purchase if there are build faults and/or quality of finish issues?  The fact that there might be a structural guarantee or the protection of consumer laws shouldn't alter your professional opinion and is a cop out in my opinion ... and potentially a very expensive (in terms of time, money, emotion) one at that for the client.  I would hope you had good professional indemnity insurance!

I would agree with Norman that there is a resultance to highlight the faults of the development on this forum.  I think this is a pity but I can understand why.  However, I don't accept that this is a sign that everyone is happy.  In your posting you use the word 'we' repeatedly and so I assume you're speaking on behalf of a group of people.  Which group would this be?
 
Finally, when buyers purchased here they were investing in a product that was to be an 'attractive holiday site'.  Why would further investment now be required from owners to achive this?  Were the developers not contracted to deliver this?

This message was last edited by houseclearou on 7/11/2007.

You miss my point. My apartment was satisfactory and I completed. These defects are real and the community using an independent architect is going about having them addressed. It will not be a perfect world but with perseverance I expect we will get a good result.

For those who choose to repudiate the contracts, a different approach is called. This carries risks but thats the choice of each buyer. I am simply supporting the AGM outcome as the best approach for those who have completed - likely to resolve the important issues at least cost risk to us. Of course you should get top quality fron spec builders but its nearly always a struggle and not just in Spain.

Dear Jerry,

in view of your criticsm, I of course reviewed my posting and find two points I would wish to clarify. Firstly, I should like to change my "light" hammer blow to "small sharp". I was of course sensitive to any suggestion that I was inviting wholesale demolition. Secondly I am concerned that I have correctly described the small terrace area shown in Brutus's photographs, not ever having seen the property, I question whether that is technically correct, should it perhaps be described as a small balcony?

Apart from that I can see no technical fault and trust I will now receive your full 100% technical endorsement.

I could not actually see any difference in our two descriptions of the apartment size, my "very small apartment" seems to fit very well with your "not exactly spacious". Perhaps you will be good enough to highlight the difference if there is one.

You have previously posted comment on apartment size and said "you thought they were smaller than expected". Given your now stated qualifications surely you can be more definite than that. Can you not post qualified measured size with all the authority that your position gives you? Can you not also certify Ian's measurements with that same authority? This would be valuable to all including any architect appointed.

 My professional opinion is that you should avoid "cop-out" if you and your qualifications are to be of any value to this forum, your president, other owners and your clients generally. My experience has taught me that clients expect definite professional technical opinion for their money, not "balanced" advice as to the law, the insurance policy, the site down the road, sites in other countries, the beach. golf course and resturants in and about the area. I find that all very evasive I am afraid.

Sorry I cannot thank you for your input, I thought it was virtually meaningless.

Regards to everyone, as always.

Norman

 

 

This message was last edited by normansands on 7/12/2007.

You all seem to be going over the same ground over and over again. A lot of us were complaining about these points a year or so ago. We were told then by our solicitors that if you took action against Interlaken , it could take two or three years to come to court and you may not win. That being the case, I took it upon myself to employ an independent surveyor from Madrid. He surveyed the property and his conclusion was that it was the correct size. This I did at substantial cost to myself. It seems to me, Norman, that you must have paid a vast sum of money without having been to inspect the site or the building. At least my excuse was that I paid the price odf plan and may I add nowhere near the amount that you seem to have paid. I've had enough of your negative view of things. If we were all like you, we'd be hanging oursleves from our very small balconies. I will not respond to any more correspondence.

I think people are missing an important point.  If any one case that is being taken against the developer is successful then it will form the basis for others (including the community) to successfully fight for compensation and/or ensure any wrongs are put right.  In order to improve the chances of cases being successful then those cases need to highlight the defects, deficiencies, etc.  Instead of branding the people that are searching for these details as negative then perhaps people on this forum should be assisting the cases by highlighting the issues.  Instead there appears to be a complete reluctance to do so.  As I said before I can understand why.  But neither will I be surprised if in return those that are fighting the cases refuse to share details of the results etc.  Again as I said before I think this is a pity and an opportunity missed on both sides. 

I was trying to be helpful by pointing out that most of us have no intention of spending money and time fighting lost battles but I wish those who decide to the best of luck. I am happy with my judgement and the course being followed from the AGM and I look forward to many happy years in CDL. As Nicholas points out, the size meets the contract, including shared areas - end of story. The Community focus then is on defects which can be remedied, eg, subsidence, cracks, etc.

Dear Nicholas,

thank you for your input, it is interesting, please bear with me a little further. I really am only seeking the facts, positive or negative, it makes no difference. I would remind you of the thread you have posted under.

I am happy to share any information about myself and my involvement openly on this forum in the hope that it will assist me and all others involved. However please don't ask me to call a spade anything other than a spade.

I am puzzled at your reference to a surveyor's report, I had been told,by a civil engineer practising in Spain in house surveying, that the profession of Chartered Surveyor did not exist in Spain. Can you not amplify and disclose that report so that it can be compared with Ian's measurements?

Secondly your reference to prices, can you not also disclose your price paid? It has been suggested to me that at some stage Interlaken sold out all apartments to M.L.H. Is it perhaps the case that you bought from Interlaken at a normal off plan price and then M.L.H. marketed these ordinary apartments as highest luxury apartments at an inflated price?

The off plan price fixed for my "luxury" apartment, as a 3 bedroomed penthouse with solarium was 425,000 euros, how does that compare?

I have several times described this site, as I viewed it before investing, as scrubland hillside. The reason it had potential to be a luxury closed holiday site with every facility was of course it's location and the necessary major works to transform it.

I see no reason for anyone to feel suicidal at my postings. Surely you must have some other grievance.

Best wishes to all and please no hangings.

Regards

Norman

 

 

 

As a non-disgruntled, non-complaining, happy and positive owner can I butt in and make a suggestion? For those who have ongoing legal cases, why don't you all meet up in the UK and discuss / share in private to your hearts' content? That's what a few of us did to get the first two AGM's off to a flying start and it is really helpful to meet with likeminded owners.

Sorry it was an Architect that measured my apartment after which I was told by my solicitor not to go to court, here are the sizes Don't forget the contract states built size For a three bed apartment 90m2 -10m2 for common parts ie (outside your front door and stairs) Then outside wall to outside wall -10m2 That should leave about 70m2 internal size including walls and wardrobes. For a two bed this is 80m2 -10m2 common parts -10m2 outside to outsde =60m2 to 63m2 or there abouts. so if this is what you have that is correct and you will loose in a court of law hope this helps everybody nicholas1

Jerry - I would be surprised if the community do not go down the route of seeking rectification or compensation from the developers.  This process will have to be funded by the owners through their community fees and could result in court action.  Therefore, whether you like it or not you're likely to be spending money on the same or similiar 'battles' to those being fought by those refusing to close.  Secondly, I have no idea how you can suggest these battles are lost.  To the best of my knowledge your views do not reflect the reality of the situation.  But perhaps you can explain?  Thirdly, I would imagine the majority of the cases being taken have little to do with the size of the apartments.  This is just one of many issues.  Finally, if at this early stage in the life of the complex there are subsidence issues then I'm not so sure that the defects can be remedied as easily as you feel.  It is not unknown to have to demolish structures that are suffering from serious subsidence.    

Ef -  A good deal of work is ongoing by those taking cases.  To assume otherwise would be a mistake.  As I already pointed out most of the people that I have spoken to and that are taking the cases seem to be energetic and positive people who are doing something constructive in addressing the wrongs that they feel have been done to them.  They are not waiting for someone else or indeed the community to do their bidding for them.  Secondly, why do you suggest that the defects are discussed in private and not on a public forum such as this?  Why are people reluctant to discuss defects here?  Details of defects are likely to be useful to many using this forum and not just those taking legal action.

I fully support the community in seeking remedy to defects like subsidence and cracking of concrete(probably related to small subsidences or shrinkage) and The Community is fully justified in getting appropriate advice to that end. Compensation or voiding of the contract is a different matter. Thats all i have been suggesting and I think it is pretty obvious. Jerry

I should have added that subsidence is associated with poor compaction of backfill and would be likely to show up in the first year or so - hence it can be identified now and remedied along with any associated cracking.

Jerry - my understanding is that not alone are the communities attempting to remedy defects but at least one community is also investigating the possibility of taking legal action against the developer due to the misselling of the complex.  You could well be joining those refusing to complete in taking similar action against the developer.  As I said before you might have a lot more in common with those refusing to complete than you think.  Finally, why do you believe the subsidence is due to compaction of backfill?  Has this been verified by experts?  Regardless of what has caused the subsidence it can take years for responsibility to be accepted and sometimes as long again for it to be sorted and certified.  It can result in closure of apartments and facilites during the work.  Sometimes demolition is required.  Serious subsidence can have a serious impact on the values of the properties.  I would be concerned that subsidence damage was visible during the build itself and by the geographical spread of the damage.  Have you information that suggests the subsidence damage is minor?  Any information appreciated.