baby car seats

No point in debating technical issues further here except to say exaggeration and scaremongering in this posting is no help to anyone. Nothing more to say on this thread!

Jerry,

may I ask in what discipline you obtained chartered engineer status and when.

I note that you give some opinion on technical matters but when questioned do not wish to debate them, you did not undertake your own snagging, though surely qualified so to do, you previously thought your apartment undersize, do not disclose your measurements, but are now sure that it is not.

You give a single possible cause of subsidence/settlement as if it was the only cause. Is this from your own site observations and have determined it as the actual cause perhaps? Have you reported your professional opinion to the supervising architect, developer etc.? Can you not share it with this forum?

Given your expert knowledge and observation of this developer's general standards, should we expect proper graded compaction? I am sure your opinion would be valuable to all if you can give it objectively.

Ian,

what is your opinion now of apartment size given Jerry's and Nicolas's architect's opinions.

Regards to all

Norman 

 

 

This message was last edited by normansands on 7/16/2007.

Jerry - before you run away with the football let's call a spade a spade!

Some people have made a decision not to submit negative posts on this forum in case it impacts on potential lettings and sales.  As I said before I totally understand this. 

However, I do take exception to people making unsubstantiated assertions and deriding the knowledgeable postings of others under the guise of being an expert or professional.

Having seen the effects of subsidence first hand, I find your flippant treatment of it deeply concerning - especially if those yet to complete or those thinking of buying act on it.  Unless you have had expert advice on the subsidence on this site then how can you possibly suggest that it is 'small subsidence'?  Your advice sounds more like that of a wishful owner who is guarding against the further depreciation in the value of one's apartment rather than the views of a professional.  

Against my better judgement, I will have one more go to clarify my views. I am in for the long haul, will use my place for family breaks and probably wont rentexcept  for family/friends. I have been on site for a number of visits and had a good look around. Uneven pavements around the PM2 pool area was indicative of poor backfill compaction around the tank structure and I am glad that this has been highlighted. There was some settlement adjacent to garage walls alsofor similar reasons.  I saw no serious building distress that would indicate subsidence under buildings which i believe would be manifest by now. The building joints in Block 15 are sound indicating no relative movement. Hence I believe the problems referred to in postings are likely to be capable of remedy. Hopefully surveys for the Community will show that to be the case. Prospective purchasers can re-assure themselves by professional survey if they are in further doubt. For owners, my hope is that all defects are systematically identified and resolved. i will be back in late September and look forward to getting updated on progress. For Normans benefit, I am a Civil Engineer but I understand that he doesnt value my opinion. I consider that the Community should have independent advice and that it needs to be available to the Committee on site. As i have already stated regarding apartment size, when I took the full footprint with common areas into account, the area was reasonably in line with the stated area for my 2-bed apartment. For my last word (ok I said that before), i believe that the site issues can be dealt with by a committed Community and we can have a lovely development which will recover its value over a number of years. Of course we were promised more than we got but we are where we are.

Goodness me, I go to Devon for a few days and come back (actually I'm still there) to find excess and pointless squabbling like children! Give poor Jerry a break, you two, he's happy with his apartment, respect that!  I (and I'm sure Jerry does too) respect that you are not happy with yours. Questioning the qualifications of someone you don't know, in public is unacceptably rude in my opinion, and totally unnecessary. Although I am more than happy with my apartment, I have in the past spent a long time trying to help both happy and unhappy purchasers, but frankly am not inclined to help you two any longer because you are so rude to everyone. Don't you have any morals or any sense of right or wrong or respect for other people's opinions? I TOTALLY understand that you are p***ed off, but it's not any other buyers fault that you find yourselves in the situation you are in.

To answer your specific query some posts away, I'm not suggesting that by meeting in private you keep any defects off the forum, I'm trying to help you by suggesting that in any walk of life, it is helpful and useful to meet with and speak to others in the same situation or with similar issues. I also happen to believe that if you are trying to sell your apartment you do not do yourself any favours posting here, your potentail buyer isn't going to buy it after reading this is he? And finally and perhaps most importantly, if I had an ongoing legal case here or anywhere (and I don't), I would not publicise my side of the case, in case it COULD be legal suicide. So, whilst you may find it hard to believe, my suggestion was made in good faith and trying yet again to help, but yet again, it has been taken other than in the manner it was made.

Jerry - Thanks for the feedback.  It is a breath of fresh air to have a normal rather than coded discussion on this forum.  In addition to what you wrote ... one of my visits was after heavy rain and there was noticeable soil subsidence around the blocks in PM2.  In one case the soil subsidence was to such an extent that the previously covered foundations of a block were exposed.  I would agree that some degree of uniform settlement is to be expected.  However, I noticed that at least one stairwell had a vertical crack which increased in width further away from the ground.  This suggests to me something more than uniform settlement.  In addition, I noticed that the tiles on many steps were pulling apart again suggesting movement.  What concerned me was that evidence of subsidence can be found from the pool right across to the blocks.  I don't really accept that the full extent of any subsidence would be clear after such a short spell post construction - especially if the builders having been masking rather than rectifying defects.  Finally, there were signs of flooding in at least one garage area.  I agree that anyone buying should look at getting a full structural report and not just an internal 'snag' list.

ef - I intend no disrespect but have you actually read and understood the posts?  Most of your points have no or little relevance to anything I have previously written.  To clarify ... 

I never questioned whether or not Jerry is happy with his apartment.  I hope he and everyone else that have bought there are rewarded for their investment and/or get many years of enjoyment from their new homes. 

I never asked for your help and indeed have no reason to seek or receive your assistance.  

You refer to me as a 'pissed off' buyer.  How did you arrive at the conclusion that I'm 'pissed off' and a buyer? 

I appreciate that you at least are honest enough to publicly acknowledge that it is not in the interests of many members of this forum to post negative remarks as it could affect the rentability and/or re-saleability of their units.  In other words much of the advice on this forum should be taken with a pinch of salt.

My interest in this forum is to point out the numerous defects to those that could be misled by the promoters.  I believe my intentions may be a good deal more noble than the many buyers who participate here and are unwilling to discuss honestly the real issues because it may damage their chances of reselling.  If you're examining morals then perhaps you should look a bit closer to home before judging mine and those of others so critically. 

The nature of judical process is that the basis of one's case has to be released to the defendant in advance of the defendant deciding if it is to be defended.  The case is then fought on this basis which is no secret.  I therefore have no idea what you mean by suggesting that publicly discussing defects to be 'legal suicide'. 

Finally, I personally don't see a discussion regarding the many defects as 'squabbling' or 'childish'.  But perhaps we have very different views of reality.  Neither can I see how anything I wrote can be deemed to be rude.  Perhaps if people can stick to proper and full discussion rather than smoke and mirrors the experience on this forum can be more rewarding for all. 

Norman

I am still 10 Sqm short.

My apt was contracted as 92 sqm and Nicholas's figures correctly add up to 82sqm for a 2 bed Apt.

Yours

ian

 

So, houseclearou, if you're not pissed off and you're not a buyer and dislike "smoke and mirrors" what are you and what is your noble reason for being on the CDS forum, which is primarily for buyers and potential buyers? Many of your posts seem to me to have a habit of pointing out negatives and ending up in frustrating and circular arguments with real owners. So why not be honest about your presence and then we can perhaps take your posts in the noble manner in which they are made. I welcome a full and proper discussion with you on those terms.

I'm not re-selling, so from that point of view, I'm actually fairly indifferent to what people post here about the negatives, I merely find it frustrating when only one side of a story is given. I've never denied that there are some serious problems with some blocks and some areas, but that is not the case for all blocks and all areas. If only the problems are discussed here, it gives a very one sided picture of the site overall, which is not right. There are owners and vendors in blocks which do not have problems and I think it is unfair for them to potentially lose out as a result of a one sided picture. And as time goes on, the only people left posting on this forum are those who have not completed or are not buyers, therefore making it a very one sided and negative forum. Everyone else is off enjoying themselves in the sun!

OK Norman

re your comments

 Brutus has shared photos with us that show, very attractively, a very small apartment, just room for a table and only 4 chairs with no room for actual people, a tiny terrace with only room for a couple of people to stand. Surely this could not  possibly be worth more than £100,000. Is this really a "highest luxury investment"?

This is a fact  that the apartment has been furnished for 4  so why would I want 6 chairs the table extends to 180 cm ( 6ft ) if required. It is only a 2 bedroom apart suitable for 4 and that is exactly as it has been furnished. It was only sold as a apartment for 4 people  and  as yet I've never actually sat at the table. I have seen plenty of apartment with 6 chairs and 180 cm table and it works for them  - a personnal choice. This was not for me and the apartment is mainly for our personal use  2-4 people. I did however hold a meeting and  there were some 30 people in the apartment  so it is actually bigger than it looks. It is not as big as I had expected and we had it prossionally measured and it measured 66ms I thought I had purchased an 82m2 apartment plus terrace of 12.8m2 however it seems we have bought a proportional of community space. we visited \the issue of sueing developer with our solicitor about the size but contractually it measured up according the the scaled drawing in our contract . we DOH! made a huge mistake and we missed the community element however my solicitor does think there is a case against the developer  but I want to explore this with a group of people across all the communities as ita a mind field and other have felt the same . not brave enough to go it alone so apologies there!

Terrace - it has a table and 4 chairs and a sunb longer and a clothes hanger pull out rail for drying clothes. Italso now has a bbq work top for bbq etc and it was exactly the size it should hve been .So I cannot complain about the terrace. 

 

Dear All,

thank you for your input, whether we agree or disagree I believe real information is all for this thread and no secrecy is required.

Brutus - thank you for sticking to the point. As a simple engineer whenever I survey a "pile" of building materials, that is what I see, no matter how attractively it is put together. I am sorry if that offends investors in dreams.

I am not only simple but gullible as well. I believe all professionals tell the truth and with no Spanish and Power of Attorney in place, I never saw the contract and believed the sales blurb. I am now, of course, somewhat wiser but no doubt will continue to learn by bitter experience until I am no more.

The point is, does your solicitor agree with Maria that the contract also embraces the sales particulars and that everything promised must be provided.

Have you also gone through trading standards in this country as others have advised as an essential first step.

Jerry - why asking you to explain yourself should be considered rude is I am afraid beyond me. I am afraid also that I cannot agree with your views on subsidence, the simple two year timescale is far from correct. I will endeavour to put something together on subsidence shortly but do hope to visit and see for myself soon rather than relying on others and photographs.

Houseclearou - I have also wondered about you, since you post a lot of good sense. Keep it up.

Ian - so your 10 square metre shortage is proven - are you alone on the whole site and does the developer agree?

Emma - please stick to the thread, I am pleased that you are happy but don't actually need to read it forever thanks.

Nicholas - what about the financial bit?

Whatever expertise and information I have is available to all. I am also happy to contribute financially but not to self-repairs even to the "gardens".

Thank you everyone and regards as always.

Norman

 

Norman,

Regarding sizes, you may be interested to know that mine and Ian's apartments are the same size / layout internally, although in different blocks, but our contract states 82sq m and his states 92sq m. Our contract is with Ocean View Homes, not Interlaken, not sure whether the vendor makes the difference or whether some contracts are just wrong?

To add to the confusion, the mortgage valuation report gives twp columns of measurements for each area, one is utilisable space (I guess internal measurements) the other I think must be external, the measurements are bigger, anyway. But if you take the utilisable space for apt, garage and storage room, it comes to around 80sq m, plus almost 12sq m for terrace.

Emma

ef - I didn't think it matters who I am or why I visit this forum.  A few posts ago I recall you complaining that someone should question Jerry's background! 

I have been investing in property for a long number of years.  On some of my trips to the Costa I inspect the site for a number of investors.  I believe what is going on here reflects many of the negatives about the local property scene.  I previously had problems with Spanish investments and I had no option but to take on some of the vested interests in the market.  I'm more than willing to shout when I see something that is wrong.  Hence my interest in this forum.  

You're correct in suggesting I would be negative about this development.  This is for the reason that people have been duped and in my opinion it is poor value for money.  There are far superior homes/investments along the coast for the same or less money.  In my opinion there are problems with the entire development and not just with some blocks.  The site is lacking in security, facilities (e.g. a commercial centre, a sports centre), etc.  I would worry about subsidence.  The quality of finish is poor. ...  

I think it is positive thinking in the extreme to suggest that the reason many aren't posting here is because they are off enjoying the sun.  I believe the biggest reasons for people not posting here is because they don't wish to damage the image of the development on a public forum and because many are reluctant to answer questions for the very same reason.  I'm aware that some buyers are now using private lists to post their concerns, questions etc. 

This message was last edited by houseclearou on 7/20/2007.

Dear All,

thank you as always but, at my age I do not have time to waste and perhaps may not be as polite as I should, however :-

Ian - given your previous posts and your declared expertise, is your "undersize" really just a "typo" error in only one contract document for the whole site? Did you intend to deliberately mislead this forum?

Jerry - thank you for your belated and reluctant attempt to give an objective engineering appraisal of what your have observed but given your post, I think you are right to recommend the employment of an experienced professional to assess the situation.

Emma - thank you for telling us what Ian neglected to. Can you not forget positive and negative for the moment and tell us some detail of the blocks and areas that have the serious problems that you say you know about? Has anyone started any sort of database of problems?

Nicholas - thank you for your pm and information it was very helpful.

houseclearou - you clearly have much to offer, how do I join the private list and get some real information and avoid the sun hysteria that pollutes this thread?

Brutus - any information please?

Sun worshippers - can you not clear this thread and start your own to post your resale propaganda?

Regards as always

Norman

 

 

 

 

Norman

I think you misunderstand what I said about mine and Ian's contract sizes, I merely point it out as an odd difference between 2 out of 527 contracts. Ian has not mislead the forum at all, he has been good enough to give his specific details, which don't match between contract and reality. We don't know what sizes are stated in all the other contracts, it might be our contract that has the typo. You can't make assumptions based on two contracts out of 527. To jump down Ian's throat as a result of something I posted is a reason why I generally have stopped giving out facts to try and help you on this forum, everything posted gets turned around and gives a reason to have a go at an innocent owner. I give up, (again!)

When I say I know about serious problems, it is merely what I note with my layman's eyes as I walk around the site. Plus what people have posted. I'm not interested in compiling formal lists or databases, I put my trust in the new officials of PM1 and PM2 who I know are doing a great job on behalf of owners, I'll help where I can and when asked, they know that.

Norman

Once again you twist the facts to suit yourself. I have not mislead anyone whatsoever. You say you deal in facts, well i gave you the facts many times and you still choose to ignore them and now accuse me of "deliberately misleading this forum" 

I have stated many times after i personally measured my apt that in my opinion I am 10 sq m short. I work in the building industry in the UK and I am quite used to setting out apts.

My measurements which were taken in sept 2006 are:   

Living area    59.30,    Terrace  12.35,   Share in common areas 9.68     Total   81.83

I have used IL size of common area as it was unclear to me what constituted this actual size. (ie Does it include the corridor outside the entrance to the apt or the stairs as well) My contract states my Apt to be 91.37sq m which means I am 10.04sqm short.

When we challenged IL we got the response below as to what they state my apt should be just a few weeks prior to completion in December 2006.

Liv area   58.83,     Terrace   13.34,    Common areas    9.68  =    81.85sqm    Even by their sizes I am 9.52sqm short.

Nicholas's measurements confirmed the common area to be approx 10sqm which matched IL's figs.

We challenged them again on their own details to be told complete on the date or you will lose your deposit. My lawyer advised to complete and seek retrospective compensation as he said i would in fact lose the deposit if i did not complete on the date. He also stated 10 sqm was a small amount on which to make a claim and there was no guarantee the claim would be successfull. He advised to seek compensation as a group rather than individually as a judge would look more favourably on the claim if a large group was involved and the costs would be shared. This info has been posted many times on the EOS forum and I know many others were given the same advice.

By the way there are many 2 bed Apts on CDS where the stated size is 91-93 sqm as detailed on the block plans that have all the prices on as there are many with sizes of 80-83sqm, they are not all the same!

Ian

This message was last edited by Ianmack on 7/24/2007.

On a lighter note, just recevied text from my first renter of appartment.  He is there with his family and I quote, 'Really like your flat-how much did it cost ?  This place has a lot going for it I think you chose well.'

On the other hand i don't know what he would have said if he read this site.  I don't know about concrete (well not much can make it at a pinch) but I often work with young people who are having trouble at school & with their peers.  One aspect we often discover is that the young person feels horrible about themselves & wants others to feel horrible.

Unfortunately marketing is about image & we have to market our product-while maintaining our rights.  I support the group to support our interests.  Also Im aware some people never be happy because they don't feel that way-not much we can do except avoid conflict.  trouble is conflict is far more interesting as any Eastenders fan will tell you-never watch the programme myself

 

Dear All,

what a lot of nonsense, has there been any useful information supplied to this thread at all?

Lots, including some who should know better, have been surprised to find that their private space does not agree with their contracted space - someone has to pay for and maintain the communal parts of a shared building. Is this different to the communal areas outside the building or even under the building? Who owns what on a public site? Are the community Presidents running legally accountable companies, actually owning land, as in the UK?

Ian - can you not answer questions without rancour? I can only judge posts made under this thread, not the 100 or so you have made elsewhere. Whilst I understand your need to emphasise your skill with the tape measure, I am afraid I have little respect for two places of decimals in the resulting areas. You have not specifically answered the question re. typos, except to say that you think it is more than one or two contracts in the 527 that Emma mentions, you talk about "we" making challenges, "groups" and even "large groups". Whilst accepting that the precision in numbers has been lost, can you not say how many people are challenging and what stage they have reached? Given what Maria says that under Spanish Law all promises must be kept, how could your lawyer possibly advise, and you possibly accept, that you should pay 100% of the money for only 90% of the goods? Were you and your "group" not aware that others were getting discounts for such shortages. Was your lawyer under any influence from the developer perhaps, do you think?

Brutus - was it all "huff and puff" with you, or are you actually going to do something for this thread?

Emma - do not discount the lay opinion, it is surprising how often so-called experts are fooled by a competent cover-up job. Give us the facts as you know them, list them in any manner you like.

Bigrocks - where is the evidence?

Pepsi - hopefully you will get the first resale and be able to post on the special resale thread, but you will have to market carefully and avoid the facts. Or perhaps they might like a penthouse at a very good price? All contacts welcome.

Mindclinic - was your fridge "highest luxury white good" or was it like your render, minimum price available?

Frankly though I am beginning to dispair that this thread will ever be taken seriously, what do you think Christos?

Regards to all.

Norman

 

 

 

 

Hi Norman and everyone else,

I wasn't going to post on the main thread because I think that as I am going to post that our apartment is the size that was stated in the contract it might just look like we were showing off. ;-)   Seriously,  we had our apartment measured before we completed by the guy who did our snagging. 

I thought you and others might be interested so you can compare it to yours, to see if the results are similar. He told us that he would measure it for us and that if it wasn't correct with the contract that he would get an architect to do it for us, as you need an architects report in order to take it to court.  He didn't want us to waste any more money as he knows that we are stretched on this financially, but he is an english guy who seems pretty trustworthy to us and he has been very helpful and is defnitely not in the builders pocket.  In our contract it states the following:-  (And I quote.)

"The property has a surface area of 71,68 squares metres and a terrace with a surface area of 11,40 square metres, including the corresponding part of common place of the building. "

In the measurements he took he got the following:-
 Built size - 69.43  Terrace - 12.8   ( He has included the common areas in his built size, which I know is crap, but apparently he said that this is common practice in Spain and so we wouldn't be able to claim that they shouldn't be included, although he also said that after our enquiry it did make him think again about it and so he measured the other apartments he was doing snagging on in other complex's and also his own apartment that he owns and the same thing was true for all of them, all the build sizes included a certain amount of common areas, which are outside your front door etc. 

So yes we are a couple of sq metres short on the build size but in order to make a claim our solicitor told us that there needs to be a difference of 5% or more than stated in the contract.  She also said that we would still have to complete anyway and then make a claim later.  It's all very frustrating as there doesn't seem to be much in place to protect the buyer, which is very different from over here in the UK.  Snagging in the UK is done before you complete and not after, which is where we are still stuck.  And we have a couple of quite major things which will be expensive to fix, we are still seeking legal advice on how to get the final snags completed.

As for the lack of sports complex, we were told that we couldn't delay completion because of this because this isn't mentioned in our contract as the contract is only for the apartment and not for the facilities on the site.  We again were told that we could try and claim later, but that it would take a long time, 2-3 years, it would be very expensive, (they asked for a €2,500 deposit before they would even start looking into it) and that there was not much chance of a success.  Of course we haven't entirely given up and we are looking into other solicitors to see if they could be more helpful, but cash flow is the problem for us if we are going to have to pay out another lump sum up front.

Did you really pay €425,000 for your apartment?  We paid €259,000 for our 2 bed first floor apartment, which I know is a lot more than others in earlier phases paid, but still seems a lot less than you paid.  We think we would be lucky to get €200,000 for it now, I know that there is one agency who has been selling apartments at a loss for people who have to just get rid quickly.  Do you want me to get the name of them for you, so you could speak to them? 

Cheers
Michelle & Neil
(Myne)


This message was last edited by myne on 7/31/2007.

This message was last edited by myne on 7/31/2007.

Dear All,

the silence is deafening but for the very refreshing post of realism, information and common sense from Myne.

Congratulations on both your posts.

What a strange bunch we have, who want and are eager to pay for their own works to self build the completion of this disgraceful shoddy complex, including redesign where necessary, that is just a caricature of the luxury development it was supposed to be.

They are clearly rich enough to "roll over and die" rather than to hold the developer and promoter responsible.

Or perhaps I am the strange one, you would need at least one gun to persuade me to pay 100% for 90% even if the full specification had been supplied in other respects. The silly suggestion that things are different in Spain would also receive short shrift.

On a point of information does anyone have details of the prices of the various phases throughout the period?

Best Regards

Norman