do we have any rights at all

hi all,

 just moved into a community very naively, and what a nightmare it has turned out to be... long story, just don't feel as if we have any rights at all in our own home. and if you know that a president is spreading lies about you , and can prove it what can be done

happy living

regards

aline

This message was last edited by alinespost on 2/24/2007.

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hello
don't know what your community related problems are but hope they get sorted out quickly. we had problems with our community which still rumbling on some two years later. it is very hard. we have been bullied by our neighbours and had to resort to lawyer's advice. of course everyone wants to get on with their neighbours but when they start dictating about your property or doing things without your knowledge you cannot but feel threatened and unhappy. what is worse is when these problems aren't caused by Spaniards (neighbours or administrators) but by english who don't understand their responsibilities under Spanish Law.
regards

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Hell Alinespost,

Welcome to EOS, we are a nie bunch here and someone will always help you.

You sound very peeved, and rightly so if you say your Presidente is "spreading lies about you"

Of course, we don't know the full story here, so if you would  tell us more, maybe we could help?

We have people here who are Presidentes of communities and they can guide you in what you should do next if you have a greivance against your community.

Please tell us more and we can try to help.

kind regards,

 

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Blimey, two first-timers to EOS, both with problems in their communities. I wonder who Fibby is thinking of as guidance councellor here?! I don't profess to be an expert in this field, just some poor sod who got lumbered with the job, but if you wish to tell us more, we'll (collectively) see if we can offer any advice or suggestions. We ARE a "nice bunch" - try us! If nothing else, it sometimes feels good just to get things off your chest! (See any of my rantings for evidence!)

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Hello again.
Thanks for the offer of a listening ear or two. My Community is about 6yrs old. We brought 3yrs ago. I won't bore you with every detail of my interactions with our President, Executive Committee and the Community at large just to say that we disagree about how decisions should be made.
Because only a few Owners live in our Community, we have about half a dozen or so activists helping the President. They are the Executive Committee. This Exec Comm make decisions accordingly to a simple majority and then seek ratification (but not always) from the  wider Community in an Annual General Meeting later.
They have got better at telling the Community more and they would argue that the decisions that they make are necessary and for the wider good of absent Owners.
However they have recently agreed to take on staff for longer periods than previously notified at the AGM and improved the contracts' of existing staff without notifying the GM.
I understand that only the President and Administrator are responsible for day-to-day affairs and their actions are limited to actioning GM Agreements or Emergencies. So work within agreed budgets is fine but anything else must be agreed.
Unfortunately when I try to explain this to either the President, Executive Committee or Community I am subject to personal insults and allegations that intend to "tell on them to the authorities".
Should I just keep quiet and live under a rock? Or should I persist?
Frankly the rock seems a nice place to be.
As I wrote before everyone wants to get along with their neighbours but I don't like being bullied nor do I like the 'great and the good' making decisions in my name without telling me first.
Interested in your opinions........

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joe90, it sounds like  you've got a right bunch reponsible for your community.  What is the general feeling towards the president?  Any chance that enough of you will be able to vote someone else in at the next AGM?  sounds like the best option to me.

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Joe, I must admit something smells a bit fishy. Who are the contractors who are getting improved conditions? Relatives/friends of the exec. committee no doubt?

First of all, do you know if there was ever a resolution passed giving this exec comm the power to make such decisions without the prior approval of the rest of the community? If there was, you may be p*ssing in the wind, so to speak,  trying to argue.

If not, I don't see how half a dozen members can make these decisions legally, unless of course they represent the majority of those present at meetings. How many owners are in your community? How many are in your camp? You can force the president (in theory at least) to call a meeting if 25% of owners, or owners representing 25% of the total quotas, request it. A simple majority of those present then carry the vote on most issues. There are exceptions, but generally requiring a unanimous vote of the entire community, so either way this mob should not be able to control things this way. If you want to brush up on the Horizontal Law, you can read it in English here:

http://www.castillotraductores.com/docs/horizontal_property_act.rtf 

(Still can't find the link on EOS, Justin, but this way I don't have to e-mail it to people!)

Having said all that, I am guessing that yours is a fairly sizeable community with a well established mafia style administration, and trying to go against the wind, whatever your legal rights, may not necessarily be an attractive proposition? Trying to vote someone else in at the next AGM is an option of course, but do you know anybody who would be willing to take it on? Would YOU do it? Believe me, even in a tiny community it's not much fun (see my articles "A Year InThe Life..."), and you can never please all of the people all of the time.

I'm not trying to suggest that your president and his cronies are squeaky clean - the situation sounds all too familiar and there's almost certainly some dodgy dealings going on. However, you say that  "they would argue that the decisions that they make are necessary and for the wider good of absent Owners." Would you say that the decisions regarding the staff that you mentioned are actually detrimental to the community? How are the finances in general? How is the general condition and maintenance of the community? Is it their running of the community that worries you, or just their arrogant attitudes?

I totally respect your standpoint about not being bullied and allowing others to make decisions without consulting you. I think it's admirable, especially since so many owners are so apathetic. You clearly have a genuine interest in protecting your investment, which is not only commendable, but entirely sensible and logical. I think perhaps you have two options. You could go for gold, canvass your neighbours, stand up and fight, get yourself into the hot seat and start to change things from the inside, show them all how it should be done. Or, and I'm ashamed to admit this would probably be my choice, you could go back to a quiet and comfortable existence under that cosy little rock.

My apologies for rambling on, I thought I was writing another article!

Rob

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Roberto, I'm sure I've given it before, but here is the link to the English copy of the horizontal property laws:

(If you right click the link and select "Save target as" you can save the copy to your PC)

Horizontal property laws in English

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Problem is Justin, unless you put that link in the thread, nobody can find it. Where exactly on the website (except the forum) is it? It's not just me.  I've had literally dozens of PMs asking for it.

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Hi Roberto,

I just right clicked on the link Justin gace to show it's "properties" and this is the link, or at least where it is on EOA:

http://www.eyeonspain.com/spain-magazine/horizontal-laws.pdf

So, it's in the Spain magazine, from the main home page.

kind regards,

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Fibby, have you actually been to the Magazine page? I can find Maria's 4 articles about Horizontal Law - parts 1,3 & 4 are under Your Spanish Home, part 2 is under Real Life Stories, but I'm sure Justin will sort that out soon! As for this PDF file, I still can't see where it is. PLEASE have a look and tell me I'm not losing my mind! I've asked Justin, but he keeps putting the link in the thread like you did. Thing is, if anybody NOT reading this thread wants it, where do they go? Maybe it's just a case of the link missing in the magazine index, Justin?

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Roberto, the pdf came as part of an article submitted about communities.  The link is in this page:

www.eyeonspain.com/spain-magazine/president-community.aspx

 

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Thanks Justin, it's been driving me nuts!

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Thank you Roberto, for taking the trouble to reply, regards Caroline

This message was last edited by carocra on 3/26/2007.

This message was last edited by carocra on 3/26/2007.

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Hello Everybody,

Many thanks for all your comments. Very interesting reading especially the stuff from Rob (Yes I've read the Life Of A President). I'm afraid that my lack of detail has meant you had to fill in the gaps.

Basically we own a house on a small urbanisation. Our urbanisation is predominantly foreign (ie non-spanish) with secondhomers from the UK in the majority. Is this increasingly typical? To read the UK papers and watch the UK television it seems that there are millions wanting to up sticks or at least get a respite in the sun away from the stress of UK living.

My problem is that the 'activists' (yes I know there are few thanks for being a Community President) who are interested in the running of my community aren't informed of the Spanish Law or prefer to ignore it. In fact I never been so ashamed of my own countrymen talking to Spanish Owners in an AGM when they said that the Spanish law is an ass and that we all break the speeding limits so it was ok to break a law in Spain that they don't (or won't) understand. Is it more acceptable to break a Spanish Law because it's not the custom in the UK?

I have a number of issues with the way my Community has and is run. Unfortunately most people are apathetic and don't realise their responsibilities and rights under the Horizontal Laws.

I think a subtitled showing of 'Aqui Non Hay Aqui Viva' on Canal 5 should be required viewing.

If you want I can elaborate with details and examples BUT the crux is that in Spain an urbanisation  / block of flats operates in a way alien to a English person's understanding.

It is a democracy (that is, I think, until the Owners vote otherwise).

Until then no decision which involves spending more money or taking on different staff can be taken without everyone having the chance to say yea or nay.

Unfortunately our helpful developers gave our Owners a copy of rules which seem to give powers to an Executive Committee of a few. This, from all the advice I've been given, completely contradicts the Horizontal Law.

But it's not so bad being under a rock especially when your English neighbours' language can be so colourful! (I assume I can't be that wrong when my Spanish neighbours don't send me the same silly, abusive and personal emails or make stupid remarks at General Meetings. (If anyone wants to read what they have sent me I'm happy to forward it )).

Anyhow thanks to you and if you want specifics please let me know.
regards
Joe

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OMG, Joe, sounds like you've got BIG problems. Maybe you need to be handing out ASBOs rather than copies of the Horizontal Law. I don't think I'm qualified to help on this one. Maybe Maria (who is a lawyer) could input?

Caroline, I think the builder/developer will have as many votes as he has properties (except of course for those he has not paid the comunity fees on) just as if anybody else owned multiple properties. I could be wrong - maybe it depends on whether those properties have actually been registered yet or not. Again, beyond my experience/expertise, sorry. I'm just an average guy who happens to be president. (Did that sound like something G W Bush would say?)

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This message was last edited by JeansSis on 5/17/2007.

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