What are the rules and laws relating to a serious debtor,thinking it's ok to use the pool without contributing?

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19 Sep 2018 22:41 by IanCook Star rating in Cheshire/Riviera del.... 13 posts Send private message

Our 1 serious debtor on the community who owes over €15k has started to use the pool and gardens. This is really annoying all the owners.

what can we as a community do to stop them using facilities they do not want to contribute to?

anyone else experienced this and solved the problem?



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20 Sep 2018 08:07 by nigel188 Star rating in Estepona. 558 posts Send private message

Hi Ian

Pass a resolution at your AGM limiting use of Swimming Pools & Tennis Courts to Paid up Community Owners only. Therefore Debtors will not be allowed to use these facilities.Have a Card Access system to these facilities and block Cards of owners who  have not paid.

Then update yourv Community Statutues accordingly..

 



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20 Sep 2018 09:33 by baz1946 Star rating. 2039 posts Send private message

One of my properties has a pool and gardens which we all had gate keys to, everybody who had a key used it, paid up or not, so the community took away the gate locks and replaced them with a round magnetic type lock, for entry and exit, and every owner had to go to a solicitors office in the town to collect the lock disc,  those who were not paid up to date got a shock, no payment, no keys.

We all agreed, and were told not to let anyone in who asked to get in and were not up to date with community fee's, which when I was asked by a family, with kids, who had rented a villa from family members to let us in..Nope was the answer.

 





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21 Sep 2018 00:33 by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1498 posts Send private message

hugh_man´s avatar

Ian Cook

Firstvquestion to ask is why does this one debtor still owe this much?

Have your Community commenced Monitorios process to claim this debt through the courts?

If the debtor is U.K. based gave you enlisted the help of a recognised debt collection agency?

Second point is, yes most certainly you can deny the debtor the use of luxury facilities such as swimming pools, this is recognised by most lawyers and administrators these days.

Your first action of increasing fees and offering discounts brought about positive results, as others have said if the debtors renters are not permitted to use pools by key entry or simp,e wristband system, they will soon hassle the debtor.





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21 Sep 2018 10:52 by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5058 posts Send private message

In euro weekly news of 20th Sept 2018 there is a piece written by a lawyer which covers this on page 42

https://www.euroweeklynews.com/2018/09/20/costa-del-sol-20-26-september-2018-issue-1733/

 


This message was last edited by johnzx on 21/09/2018.

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21 Sep 2018 12:42 by baz1946 Star rating. 2039 posts Send private message

So in a nutshell if I read it correctly that is, house owners have to pay community charges to allow those who don't pay the use of, say the pool for one instance, meanwhile Spain lets builders of with conning house buyers, the courts do nothing, banks give you the runaround over accounts, and so on and so on.

This was in the South of Spain, perhaps other areas have different rules, when we stopped owners and visitors from using our pool not one person who owed monies complained to anyone, my villa just so happened to be the closest to the pool and it seemed to be me that told most to shove of and pay your dues.

I for one couldn't care less about stupid laws and rules that only exist to benefit the rule breakers, while the honest people get screwed, thankfully I always pay whats owed so no problems for me.





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22 Sep 2018 10:34 by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1498 posts Send private message

hugh_man´s avatar

Haven’t you worked it out yet?

This is Spain.

No way to enforce most rules which are not fit for purpose.

Rules are generally for the Invaders anyway.

Lie as much as like because there is NO Law against perjury here.

Dont negotiate, its the Spanish way or not at all.

Why do you think the Catalans want out?

Love it or hate it, your choice?





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22 Sep 2018 12:48 by mariedav Star rating in Ciudad Quesada. 901 posts Send private message

Dear me, what  a load of tosh you come out with hugh man.

 





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22 Sep 2018 16:30 by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1498 posts Send private message

hugh_man´s avatar

I trust you can support your rather deroratory response.

Baz was pointing out some of the inadequacies and unfairness of the system here, I merely highlighted many of the issues that foreigners face and

the lack of a Law against perjury is FACT.

difficulty in enforcing Community Rules is FACT

This thread started because owners were asking how they could 

1. Reduce debts

2. Prevent debtors from using facilities which was fairly difficult in Spain until lawyers started to advise that the use of luxury facilities could probably be denied to debtors.

It is still FACT that you can not deny debtors the use of electricity, water and most Community facilities even though they don’t contribute.

It is FACT that a Community cannot legally fine residents for breach of rules or damage to the Community.

I 5hink Baz had a valid point.





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22 Sep 2018 17:17 by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5058 posts Send private message

Perjury is not an offence but it would seem only for a defendamt ?   Normally, although defendants who lie in a UK are not prosecuted, albeit they commit an offence. So not that much different from Spain.

This is a notice displayed at police stations which says it is an offence to make a false statement to the police, court  etc. and that doing so is punishable with a fine and or  imprisonment,  Sorry that the image is not upright, it is on my PC.

See here also:-    http://belegal.com/blog-by-antonio-flores/no-perjury-in-spanish-courts-lie-as-much-as-you-wish/

Extract

But make no mistake as to who can lie in Court: witnesses will be prosecuted if they do so for ‘false testimony’ (falso testimonio), a charge that carries prison terms. Also, you can be charged with falsely reporting a crime if you employ deceit (denuncia falsa) and likewise, be convicted of a crime.


This message was last edited by johnzx on 22/09/2018.


This message was last edited by johnzx on 22/09/2018.


This message was last edited by johnzx on 22/09/2018.

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TO AVOID THE POSSIBILITY OF ARGUMENTS IN THREADS, WHICH MAY CONFUSE THOSE WHO NEED ADVICE, IF YOU THINK I CAN HELP PM ME



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22 Sep 2018 18:06 by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1498 posts Send private message

hugh_man´s avatar

http://belegal.com/blog-by-antonio-flores/no-perjury-in-spanish-courts-lie-as-much-as-you-wish/

Witnesses are required to tell the truth BUT Claimants & Defendants are permitted to lie, according to this interpretation.

As this suggests, ask Jeffrey Archer.





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22 Sep 2018 18:10 by baz1946 Star rating. 2039 posts Send private message

It might be against some rubbish law or another that you cant stop people from using, say the community pool because they haven't paid all community fee's, but I say again, it worked, and is still working for us, I expect some who I told to get lost must have thought if they go further with this ban on the pool they would have to admit they owed money and might have landed in more trouble.

It matters not where you are these days, the laws are in place to protect the criminals, it does nothing for the innocent people anymore, you can put posters up anywhere you like, fact is who in the criminal world cares, about these and I class those people who refuse to pay community charges much the same as being criminals, albeit on a smaller scale, but just the same because they are robbing someone.





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22 Sep 2018 18:36 by hugh_man Star rating in Kent/Roda . 1498 posts Send private message

hugh_man´s avatar

Baz

You are right that those breaking the law appear to be better protected than those sticking to the rules.

Our Community denied the issue of wristbands to use the pools to debtors and although difficult to monitor or enforce in large Communities with open pools, it most certainly generally worked for us and many other Communities on the same resort soon followed suit.

Not one debtor has challenged the Community’s  decision 😀

As did increasing the fees and offering discounts to owners who paid on time rather than just adding surcharges to fees neither of which were paid.

Individuals or Communities just have to find a way to make a poor and at times corrupt system work for them.





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