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I think it's becoming more and more clear what this new reporting requirement will be used for, especially in light of what happened in Cyprus recently.
I think it will initially be used as a basis for a future wealth tax, set at much lower levels than the current level. I think Hacienda will also use it as a way of fining people for making any mistakes on the declaration and will also hit them for any backdated tax for assets not previously declared on their declaracion de la renta.
I also think that worst case scenario if there are capital controls/bank runs and/or the possibility of Spain leaving the euro, the information declared will be used to force people to bring their money into the Spanish system. If people refuse, then their Spanish assets would be embargoed. This may sound a bit far fetched, but after Cyprus, who knows what is possible...
All this information provided to Hacienda is basically doing their job for them. There is no way they would be able to collect all of this information themselves, especially if you haven't gone through the double taxation process. Also, as I understand it, UK banks only automatically share information with Spain if there is a Spanish address on the account.
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Just met a friend in town, who has seen his accountant this morning, with a view to not declaring. The advice was that he would be stupid not to declare as legally required to do, as the penalties are so incredible high.
Then I met another friend who boasts about his wealth, big house, cars etc. who says he will not declare. I have a feeling that he might have problems
Someone once informed the Hacienda that I was not paying my full taxes (which of course I was thankfully). They were very thorough in their investigation of my assets. They blamed the reason for their enquiry on a request from the Inland Revenue, who said when called them, that if they had wanted to question me they would never have done it via Hacienda. That confirmed my suspicions that someone had tried to put me on the spot.
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As johnx said, there are many people who have no intention of complying with the law. I met someone from Jersey who has never paid income tax here and certainly won't declare his assets. He claims that Jersey doesn't exist in Spain's eyes and has no way of finding out about him-is he right?
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The friend I mentioned earlier, who spoke his accountant today, was told he required the SWIFT codes and IBAN numbers for each account.
(I have not looked at what info is required so do nopt know if that is correct, but someone will)
When he asked his bank for the SWIFT and IBAN, his UK bank was surprised as those numbers are only required to transfer money in or out of an account. He suspected (based on what, I do not know ) that the Hacienda may be attempting to be able to withdraw money from foreign accounts.
My friend will speak to his accountant again and when he calls me, I will pass on what he said.
As I said, I am only passing on what I was told
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johnx -IBAN /swiftBIC nubers are required on the form, but if what you say is true there will be many very worried people out there-myself included.Can Maris comment on this-what IS the reason for theses numbers to be revealed on the form? I know many are worried about tthe tremendous amount of detail required!
I think Spain has shot itself in the foot with this assets law. Yes there is a need to chase up tax evaders and big time cheats, but they seem to be targeting ex pats, particularly pensioners who have spent all their lives working and building up a retirement pot with which to have a happy retirement. Horrendous fines merely for innocent advertant mistakes on a hideously complicated form which is confusing even tax accountants seems criminal. Massive intrusion into privacy as well. Many who were thinking of retiring to Spain will now think again! Is no one in high places protesting against this heavy handed approach?
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Presumably you only have to declare bank a/c details if you have the equivalent of over 50,000euros in the bank(s)
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sorry for the mistake-I meant Maria, not Maris!
scubamike- yes it's common knowledge that you only ave to report assets of 50,000 and over.
Why do they require bank name ,address,IBAN/BIC swift number, account number, when opened, balance as at 31/12/2012, average balance over last quarter etc. Johnx's last post is disturbing.
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I was going to let my accountant have details of my UK bank account and leave it to him to decide what to do but now I shall only let him know about a small investment bond I have which slightly exceeds the 50,000 and which hacienda are already aware of as the interest has been declared on my Spanish tax return
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scubamike-you have to state ALL your assets over 50,000 euros and you have to give all the details-it's a massive form
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Firstly, camposol, how are they targeting expats? Don't the Spanish have to complete these details if they have overseas assets? And they also have to declare assets in Spain as well. Where are people going to go if they are, as you say, being put off Spain? France? You've had to provide this information for years including assets such as jewellery, cars, paintings etc. Germany? They brought in taxes on foreign assets years ago, hence why so many Germans sold up to avoid paying it. America? Sorry, wrong again. Citizens have had to provide this information for some time and it now applies to "resident aliens" as well. Canada, too, with all overseas properties, stocks, bonds , bank accounts etc having to be declared once you take up residency. Go farther afield and India now requires this information as well. Still, it's not paranoia if they're all out to get you.
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How many average Spaniards have assets outside Spain. The very rich will have a good accountant and avoid this law with some loophole. The Hacienda are aware expats are an easy target, with savings accounts etc
Why so many specific details-IBAN etc? I am not the only one to be suspicious! Do other countries demand such details?
Why the harsh penalties for mistakes. I have no control over the accountant for example putting a wrong amount or date in. Huge fines are disproportionate. It's a different matter choosing to hide a massive savings account
People probably won't move at all, they will just stay put in UK and holiday in Spain instead of retiring there.I have heard of many people choosing to spend less than 183 days here.They are scared of falling foul of the Hacienda.
I think many, although happy to declare accounts etc, will resent exposing their very private details, not knowing how they may be used.
How many out there are happy to reveal them?
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hi can someone explain to me how they work out the amount of tax you would have to pay where and when it would need to be paid, is it a set % of the total amount?
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Scubamike - As I see it, once you have something in a class that takes you above € 50000, you have to report everything within that class.
As the Blevins Franks website says, ' A fine of €5,000 per each piece of unreported data, with a minimum of €10,000 ' define each piece of unreported data if you can.
As I said earlier ' On the comments as to whether or not to report a bank account, that is entirely up to the individual, as far as I can see there is nothing to say that you can pick or choose, or that anything below a certain value need not be declared.
I for one will report everything, no matter how small - only my personal view and opinion on what I'm going to do - if you think I'm over the top, that's up to you, this affects everything I've worked for in my life and I do not intend to jeopradise it on a technicality '.
The problem is that not one of us knows what will happen if we make a mistake or decide to leave something out.
I still can't find a BIC - IBAN code for National Savings (Premium Bonds), but I have found one for Nationwide UK, passbook accounts if anyone is interested, Nationwide SWIFT address: NAIAGB21 (This number is also known as our BIC or Bank Identifier Code) * If you have a passbook account please quote the IBAN number GB97NAIA07009333333334, there is not a different code for each branch, it's a generic code for all passbook accounts, I have checked them with the branch that holds my passbook accounts and they are correct... however please do check this information yourself, this is information purposes only..
bobaol - I agree with you, I don't think they are targetting expats, we just happen to fall into this as we are tax resident in Spain and to quite honest if I had that much money, I probably wouldn't be in Spain.
Of course honest people are worried, I've never had to do anything like this in my life before, as I said in my very first post, ' I find this a highly intrusive law, but as I am tax resdient in Spain, I will comply with it '.
As 30th April approaches, this thread, quite understandably, is starting to hot up, more input from those who already submitted would be helpful.
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It's not a tax-it's a declaration,due by 31st April. You make your income tax declaration before June 30th.
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In some ways the Cyprus situation has been a blessing in disguise it has certainly made us all very aware what could happen I am very reluctant to give anyone my bank details they will be wanting my pin number next.!!
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Jimbo-g wrote
The problem is that not one of us knows what will happen if we make a mistake or decide to leave something out.
If you make a mistake or leave something out, you will be fined 5,000 per item.
Translation
If a taxpayer has to present the model 720 by the informative obligation regulated in article 42 bis of the General Regulation approved by RD 1065 / 2007, of July 27 by a series of open bank accounts abroad, and presents information on the three accounts listed in the following table by omitting or entering data/data sets provides incompleteinaccurate or false.
The following table includes the three counts on which is reported in the model 720, collecting the right data shaded and with an "X" data/datasets omitted/incomplete/inaccurate/false.
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Data or datasets
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© Company name (den.) + home
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© Identification full CCC
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date of opening / award
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balance at 31/12
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balance half last quarter
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It has no. 1
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X
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It has no. 2
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X
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It has no. 3
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X
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They have been omitted or declared incomplete/inaccurate/false incompletely three data or datasets in three different (from three different entries) accounts.
Do the sanction would be minimal? and the penalty corresponding to the case brought in the example?
The sanction minimum operates by each information obligation, in this case operates the obligation of information in article 42 bis of the General Regulation approved by RD 1065 / 2007, of 27 July. The minimum penalty will be of 10,000 euros.
The penalty corresponding to the stated case where the breach of the obligation of reporting article 42 bis General Regulation approved by RD 1065 / 2007, of 27 July, omitting either stating incomplete, inaccurate or false way, two sets of data and data, will be 15,000 euros (5,000 euros/data or data set as provided in paragraph 2.a) eighteenth additional provision of Act 58/2003(, 17 December, General Tributaria).
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Campasol wrote
I have no control over the accountant for example putting a wrong amount or date in.
Even though the return (and any other return for that matter) is submitted by your accountan/gestoria, it is still your responsibility to check the accuracy of the data. You should ask then to let you see a copy of the submssion before it is sent.
I'd be surprised if they don't do this.
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When he asked his bank for the SWIFT and IBAN, his UK bank was surprised as those numbers are only required to transfer money in or out of an account. He suspected (based on what, I do not know ) that the Hacienda may be attempting to be able to withdraw money from foreign accounts.
It seems to me that its just to ensure that if they investigate you (for whatever reason - perhaps from a cross reference exercise - which I have posted about before), there is no doubt about the assets you have declared (or not declared) as the case may be. The only way to do this, is to have the account details
I posted this on another site (can't see that I posted it here)
In the UK, nobody can charge you account without your authority, except the bank, through a setoff arrangement, the government (through legislation, as in Cyprus) and the courts. For the courts to issue an order to sequestrate your money, there needs to a judgement against you to show that there is a debt. This has to be on an individual basis.
This is from the FSA website (which has been transferred this week to the FCA), but will still be valid information,
What should I do about a payment from my account that I didn’t authorise?
Your bank must refund an unauthorised transaction. Money can only be taken from your account if you have authorised the transaction or your bank can prove you were at fault.
Contact your bank immediately if you notice a payment out of your account that you did not authorise. If you are sure that you did not authorise the payment you can claim a refund.
However, your bank does not have to refund you if you do not tell it about the payment until 13 months or more after the date it left your account.
This message was last edited by KathysLad on 02/04/2013.
This message was last edited by KathysLad on 02/04/2013.
This message was last edited by KathysLad on 02/04/2013.
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KathysLad - I think that we have already established that National Savings Premium Bonds fall into Class 1... ' National Savings and Investments (NS&I), formerly called the Post Office Savings Bank and National Savings, is a state-owned savings bank in the United Kingdom '.
I have just spoken to National Savings and they have told me that there is no BIC or IBAN code for Premium Bonds, as you cannot transfer money into or out of this product. I am waiting for an email confirmation of this point.
There are BIC and IBAN codes for savings accounts.
So on the basis of the chart you submitted, ' Identification in full CCC ' , could this mean that all of us who declare Premium Bonds are in for a potential € 10,000 - or even € 15,000 - fine before we even start, on the basis of ' omitting either stating incomplete, innacurate data' ???.
I'll speak to my Gestoria about this.
Has anyone yet submitted a Modelo 720 that contains Premium Bonds ?.
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Am I missing something here ?
£30,000 is the maximum holding allowed in Premium Bonds, so why report them at all?
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