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from alecB
I have again been asked to renew my residencia today by the local social security worker in the council office where I live in Ibiza., I told her that I think the rules had changed in June 2007 and residencia was abolished for EU citizens. I have lived here for the past 15 years with all the correct papers and had 3 residencia cards, I am in the system and have been all the time, I am registered at the council office for voteing etc and am currently unemployed and signing on in INEM and I have a new medical card which entitles me to all my needs. I have a new British passport and have had no problems in the past. When I visited the police national office they told me I had to have private medical insurance and still refer to residencia as a must.
As I understand things- I should be automaticaly a perminent resident as I have been here more than five years and I also think nothing needs to be renewed for me to stay and live here in Ibiza and as for private medical insurance thats a joke at 200 euros a month when I am unemployed.
So whats the bottom line in simple speak, my old residencia card expired in March of this year.
What do I need to do- anything or nothing and how do I get the message over if I need do nothing. Thanks
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You were obliged to re-register on the EU Citizens Register on the expiry of your Residencia. Had you done so within three months it would have been automatic.
That you failed to do so (in breach of the law) you now have the problem of proving income, and medical cover.
Spain have not done anything unilaterally, but in fact have got into line with the EU Directive. By coincidence, See Blevins Franks article in today’ Sur In English which explains it.
This message was last edited by johnzx on 31/08/2012.
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You’re not the only one confused Been hearing for a while that it is getting more and more difficult to get a NIE (residencia number) even for those with an EU passport. I was I just in today to get a replacement NIE certificate for my wife, we thought we had lost it (turned out we had it) and it turns out to be a lost worse than I imagined. Usually, for an EU passport holder, this is a simple process, show your passport and it's done. Matter of fact a couple of friends just renewed their a couple of weeks ago, so no problem, or so I thought.
Well long story short they refused to issue a replacement certificate and she was told that unless someone can show evidence of a job (including contract and the last 3 payments) and SS payments AND a current health card they would not be issued a residencia number. And without that number you can't live in Spain do anything like register a car or get a mobile phone or rent an apartment etc.
Anyone else having problems getting their NIE numbers?
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Decided after all I don't like Spanish TV, that is having compared both.
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Rob,
from your post it appears you are confusing NIE (Numero Identificación Extranjero( with registering on the EU Citizens Register (The Residencia, as far as EU citizens are concerned was abolished in April 2007)
The requirements for the Citizens Registrar include income and medical cover requirements, or employed status, the NIE alone does not.
An NIE is required if you do not live in Spain but want to buy say a house, open a non-resident's bank account etc.
EU registration is if you are resident in Spain, i.e. spend or intend to spend 3 or more months permanently in Spain.
If you have an NIE when you apply for the EU Registration, then the number you get for that, is the same as the NIE.
If you do not have do not have an NIE when you apply for the Citizens Registration, then the number you get is also your NIE.
This message was last edited by johnzx on 02/09/2012.
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hi johnzx
can you answer me this please
when you say you have to re-register on the eu citizens register on
the expiry of your residencia do you mean that you have to get the green form
renewed every so often as I cannot find an expiry date on mine.
very confusing
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Hi Formentera
I said the Residencia was abolished in April 2007. Thus, for those who had a Residencia, ( i.e. for five years after their last Residencia was issued) they had to register on the EU Register when that Residencia expired. If they did so within three month then it was automatic and no extra paperwork (proof of income, medical cover etc) as is now required, was needed.
For those who registered on the EU Register, after April 2007 (green paper) that registration never needs renewing (unless of course they change the law again).
And for clarity. The NIE has never needed renewing as that was forever too. It is the number by which the Tax Office and other Government Depts can trace all your financial transactions -- where the number was quoted. Thus the Hacienda can find all bank accounts etc you have by searching the relevant NIE.
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hi jonhzx,
yes I do understand the n.i.e. and thank you for
informing me that at the present moment the green
paper does not have to be renewed, but as you say they
could change the rules again
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"............................ but as you say they could change the rules again.........."
I said that, as one would say that any law in any country could at some time in the future be changed. There is no reason to believe that will happen in anything like the near future in this case. So, one can probably ignore it.
I am sometimes very aware that some people here love to find any possibility, no matter how vague or hypothetical, to find fault with any information supplied.
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There is no legal reason that the renewal shouldn't be done automatically still. Under EU law the renewal should be automatic & no no additional information can be asked to be supplied. The fact that you already had a tarjeta de residencia means that all that is required is an new padron . Friend of mine signed on last week with his out-of-date by 18 months old tarjeta. & this is all they required.
" Just went in and renewed our residencia.....which had expired over a year ago apparently.
They wanted the old card, photocopy of old card, NIE, Passport, photos, and completed form.
They did not want Padron, proof of earnings or income, medical cards etc.
And in 5 minutes we had this ludicrous little bit of paper the size of a credit card.....and that apparently is the new residencia! And it shows no expiry date on it!
So that's the current state of play in Baza, Granada."
You have to remember that , regardless of paperwork, Under EU rules you are a resident from the day you decide you are going to be . ( just be able to prove it somehow ! ) The respective country has no real say in the matter.
The fact that the OP had a residency card is enough to entitle him/her to registration on the EU citizens register automatically & with no requirement to prove anything.
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Todos somos Lorca.
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Ok I accept that things are done differently in different places.
I have worked with the National Police for about 15 years. What I have written complies with what actually happens at the office where I work.
I am aware that some people like to dig up problems !!!
By coincidence, Blevins Franks’ article in this week's Sur in English (available on line at http://print-edition.surinenglish.com/ see page 5) stated that the regulations which are now being applied are in line with the EU Directive; Spain apparently had previously worked on a less strict interpretation of the EU law.
So take your choice what you want to accept as being correct, but don't blame me if you don't have the paperwork required and you have to make another journey.
Good luck everyone.
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The fact that the OP had a residency card is enough to entitle him/her to registration on the EU citizens register automatically & with no requirement to prove anything.
Absolutely correct.
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That you failed to do so (in breach of the law) you now have the problem of proving income, and medical cover.
Spain have not done anything unilaterally, but in fact have got into line with the EU Directive.
That is totally incorrect, on both counts.
1. After 5 years UNCONDITIONAL permanent residence now exists. No administrative procedures are required to 'claim' this. It happens - by itself, after 5 years. The OP does not have to prove anything. Unconditional means what it says. Anyone who claims otherwise simply does not understand the law on this topic.
2. If you are claiming that people must 're-register' after 5 years, that is not in accordance with the diective (read it), or with other official guidance on the topic. It would, in fact, be contrary to the directive.
I would suggest that if this is the calibre of advice the police in your area are giving out, they need to go for re-training.
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As I said , "So take your choice what you want to accept as being correct, but don't blame me if you don't have the paperwork required and you have to make another journey."
I am not sure that quoting 66d to the staff at the police station will carry much weight, but who knows ?
Bit like walking out on a pedestrian crossing because you know that in law the cars must stop, and saying from your hospital bed, or worse ! that you were right.
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I am not sure that quoting 66d to the staff at the police station will carry much weight, but who knows ?
Good grief. This is hard work.
If an official is mis-interpreting and mis-applying EU law, there are clear procedures in place to facilitate a complaint and resolution. In this case the place to consult is SOLVIT.
http://ec.europa.eu/solvit/site/index_en.htm
They will take your complaint, and raise it on your behalf with the Spanish authoritties.
This is the correct way to deal with such issues.
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The office display a notice confirming what they require, which is from Comisaria General de Extranjería y Fronteras, conjunta con la Subdirección general de Inmigración del Ministerio de Empleo y Seguridad Social.
So it is not just the officials in the office.
But I repeat again, take your choice, do as 66d says or what the police require, albeit that they may be wrong. But unless you do what they want, I would think it is extremely unlikely that you will be able to register as they say you must.
Incidentally, please note (for EU citizens) that I did not say one must renew the EU registration every five years but that one must do it either for the first time of within 3 months of an existing Residencia Card expires. From then on (unless they change the law) it will never be required again.
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If an "existing Residencia card" has "expired" they will have been here for at least 5 years.
Hence, they have permanent residence.
They are under NO OBLIGATION WHATSOEVER to "renew" or "register" for anything else. It is voluntary at that point.
Please read the Directive on this point. Article 16. There are no penalties if you decide not to request a certificate confirming this fact.
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If an "existing Residencia card" has "expired" they will have been here for at least 5 years.
Hence, they have permanent residence.
They are under NO OBLIGATION WHATSOEVER to "renew" or "register" for anything else. It is voluntary at that point.
Please read the Directive on this point. Article 16. There are no penalties if you decide not to request a certificate confirming this fact.
I
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I thought I had made it clear that whilst that was your interpretation (and could well be right) it’s not really important, as the police say one must register, or if one has had a Residencia before then they must register on the EU Citizen Register.
Whether one does or not is up to them , but I don’t think 66 will offer to pay any fine which might be imposed if they do not do as the police and Immigration say.
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If.... if... if... anyone is "fined" for this then they need to complain via SOLVIT (as pointed out before) who WILL intervene.
That is their job. It is why they exist. It is what they do.
They sort out misapplications of EU law by officials....
In fact, I am not aware of anyone ever being so fined. Are you?
You seem to have a very subservient/authoritarian mind-set if you don't mind me saying so. Your position is that "you do what the police tell you" - even though they are completely wrong! The law is the law, and anyone can read it and verify the position for themselves. Further, any decent immigration lawyer could explain all this and act on someone's behalf, as would SOLVIT (for free).
It is not difficult. It is not complex. I will spell it out again.
1. After 5 years you ARE a permanent resident. You do not have to apply for this.
2. You are not obliged to sign any register after 5 years legal residence. It is optional.
3. After 5 years there are NO CONDITIONS. You do not have to demonstrate heath care coverage, income, or anything else. It is unconditional (except for serious threats to public security/terrorism).
Again, all of this is available in plain English and Spanish.
Please read it.
This message was last edited by 66d35 on 11/09/2012.
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Yes, once a person has been here 5 years they are permanent, but with the introduction of the EU Registration one needs to register, after that then you are right, one will never need to register again (unless they bring in a new law).
But even assuming you are 100% right, it would seem a lot simpler to register than to fight the authorities on a point which in reality is not worth it. I would rather waste my time posting here than fighting that battle.
When my Residencia ran out, April 2007, I registered on the EU Register. No complicated paperwork, in fact I think it was in effect automatic.
The 'problems' with the system operating now only affects new applicants, who either have not had a Residencia or did not renew in within 3 months.
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