Modifying a Car in Spain , some clarification from experts required

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23 Aug 2012 17:11 by K 5ive Star rating in Cambrils. 116 posts Send private message

Here is something I have never seen discussed on here before. The motoring world in the UK is being thrown into a panic due to an eU report about all modidfications to cars other than those from the factory.

Now I have shared this on several websites and it has been met with so much apathy by so called car enthusiasts. I have cited Spain as an example of what can happen with draconian laws. However people refuse to believe me. Any experts out there that can shine a light on what the laws are on modifying cars. As I see it you can fit an aftermarket ait filter, body kits etc. You must retain the original manufacturers tyre size ie you cannot put big wheels on. We all know about Tow bars! Exhausts? What about engine swaps? etc, etc

Anyone care to comment?





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24 Aug 2012 09:32 by guslopez Star rating in Lorca, Murcia.. 745 posts Send private message

Err no you can't fit body kits without having them homologated. Yes , i didn't realise when I came here how  strict it all was. Similar to Germany, everything on the logbook. Basically if you want to do anything it will require an inspection.

You can actually change /add wheel & tyres but they have to be inspected & added to the logbook.

If you even wish to add aftermarket driving lights they have to be inspected . I know all about the proposed new EU law as I'm a member on Retro Rides, amongst others & of the apathy that has been shown to Ace who have been trying to get everyone onside for years .

Exhausts, lights, bodywork, etc ;etc;  it extends even to seats inside ! You could get away with a direct engine change, same for same but from diesel to petrol or vice -versa ,they'd look at you as though you had two heads. Most cannot comprehend that anyone  actually works on their own vehicle , let alone has the ability to do it.

The 4 x4 lads have to homologate everything.

The real problem is that  along with completely wiping out the UK aftermarket car industry it will also make illegal all those vehicles that are at present ,& have been for donkeys years, legal.

The reports here for anyone who wants to read it.

 

http://www.the-ace.org.uk/armageddon/#more-901

 

 

 



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24 Aug 2012 10:42 by K 5ive Star rating in Cambrils. 116 posts Send private message

Interesting, I am on Retro Rides amongst loads of other forums as well. I posted it on Corsa Sport and they all trashed the post saying that I did not know what I was talking about, I do live here! I think I have a fair knowledge of things out here.

Interesting one about the driving lights as I bought some original Landrover spolights for my Frelander, so I would have to have it inspected once fitted? Do you have to make an appointment, how does it work?

Years ago I wanted to bring my heavily modified SD1 out here but sold it due to scare stories of it not being allowed in.





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24 Aug 2012 13:39 by guslopez Star rating in Lorca, Murcia.. 745 posts Send private message

the spanish have a thing about lighting power. 75 candlepower & that is it. Iknow that UK discovery driving lights have to have the bulbs changed to reduce light output to comply with the spanish requirement. Me personally I'd just put them on until the itv is due & then ask the question . With some things they not only want a ec homologation paperwork but they also want a 'certificate of installation'  I-E they have to be , as does most work, fitted/installed by a licensed installer who can issue the certificate stating that they have beeninstalled correctly.

Having fallen foul of this some years back I can tell you that excessive light output is classed as 'defecto muy grave' , on par with having no brakes near enough ! lol. Theoretically you cannot drive the vehicle on the road only to a garage to have the 'problem' rectified !!  WITh some of the things they are basically all mad.



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24 Aug 2012 15:50 by K 5ive Star rating in Cambrils. 116 posts Send private message

I see, these are just some small bumper mount original fog lights so light output would be normal, 55 watts I would think.

With such silly rules and regs they effectively cut their nose of to spite their face as the car tuning industry is a very lucrative thing.

As for the fitting it's as though they do not trust peoples capabilities to install anything. no common sense. You can tell instantly if something is installed badly.





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24 Aug 2012 17:33 by robertt8696 Star rating in Midlands, UK. 479 posts Send private message

 K5ive and Guslopez, i read your thoughts with a little amusement, as the law in the UK has been very similar in the UK for many many years! If a car is modified from its original type approval in any way in the UK, you are supposed to take it and get an Engineers report, not just a statement from a garage mechanic, and once passed by said Engineer, you are supposed to declare the modification, now inspected and deemed safe , to the Insurance, who if they think fit, will with luck, insure the vehicle, of course at a greater premium, and of course all paperwork should be retained.

Being "Good Old Blighty" the people who do this are in the minority, and just drive their now "improved" banger around, and hope they are never found out!

As to lighting regulations, the law in the UK is that a driving light must be a rating of 55W/65W, dip beam being 55Watt and main being 65Watt. The use of greater wattage bulbs is not in accordance with construction and use regulations and IS an offence. Likewise any greater wattage spotlight must be aligned correctly to prevent making trouble for other drivers and MUST be only usable with the main beam lights, not independently. Again , UK construction and use regulations which english drivers are always ignorant of. "oh, i didnt realise, Officer"





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24 Aug 2012 18:17 by guslopez Star rating in Lorca, Murcia.. 745 posts Send private message

robertt8696

" K5ive and Guslopez, i read your thoughts with a little amusement, as the law in the UK has been very similar in the UK for many many years! If a car is modified from its original type approval in any way in the UK, you are supposed to take it and get an Engineers report, not just a statement from a garage mechanic, and once passed by said Engineer, you are supposed to declare the modification, now inspected and deemed safe , to the Insurance, who if they think fit, will with luck, insure the vehicle, of course at a greater premium, and of course all paperwork should be retained."

You'd be dangerous if you had a brain.

Your statment that most don't declare  any & all modifications is offensive to say the least. No one who is spending 000's & 10's of 000's on modifications to their vehicles is not going to not declare all & every one of them . Most go for agreed value cover . The vast majority comply totally with all aspects of the requirements that are presently in place. In addition most no all the construction & use , sva , bva , etc; etc; etc; rules & regulations inside out .

This new EC law , which you have obviously not read,  would not allow ANY modifications whatsoever & would render illegal all vehicles presently legally modified. It would also decimate the ability of anyone to save historic vehicles that had been in any way modified from original spec.

The aftermarket car industry , & we are not just talking about halfords & the bolt-on brigade , but the engineers , mec hanics, panel-beaters, vehicle refinisheres, trimmers, etc; etc; etc ; is a multi-billion pound business  & the complete loss of this would increase unemployment quite dramatically.

As to your comments on "lighting" Yes we know how it works  & we aren't talking about the wattage of the bulbs but the overall lumens/candlepower output allowed in total. New vehicles in the UK are not legal here in Spàin as  they are sold here with lower output lights. A new car in one country , regardless of homologation, is not necessarily legal in another EU country.

 

The one forum that K5ive & I are both members of has a membership of 23,000 +, & a huge amount of these are people like myself who are in their 40's & 50's & are not only car aficionados but highly qualified in many cases.



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24 Aug 2012 19:24 by Marksfish Star rating in Vera, Almeria. 2559 posts Send private message

Marksfish´s avatar

Not Spain I know, but my Dad is having kittens trying to interpret the new law. He bought an E type a few years ago and had a 5 speed box fitted to it, and sold the old 4 speed to help pay for it. He also has a TR4 where the ignition has been changed from points to electronic.

Mark





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24 Aug 2012 20:16 by guslopez Star rating in Lorca, Murcia.. 745 posts Send private message

Not Spain I know, but my Dad is having kittens trying to interpret the new law. He bought an E type a few years ago and had a 5 speed box fitted to it, and sold the old 4 speed to help pay for it. He also has a TR4 where the ignition has been changed from points to electronic.

Mark

& it is things like that , minor & not even worth talking about that under the proposed new EU law will render them scrap. It is absolute nonsense that it has been allowed to develop into this situation.



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25 Aug 2012 00:44 by robertt8696 Star rating in Midlands, UK. 479 posts Send private message

 Guslopez, i find your attitude very offensive, expecially as i didnt question your esteemed opinion, merely clarified the situation as it stands in  the UK.

Firstly i find your comment, "You'd be dangerous if you had a brain." totally offensive and nothing whatsoever to do with the subject matter being discussed.

Also your parting comment i find quite a shot across the bows, and would be quite a good shot if it were accurate, "The one forum that K5ive & I are both members of has a membership of 23,000 +, & a huge amount of these are people like myself who are in their 40's & 50's & are not only car aficionados but highly qualified in many cases." Let me inform you, i am in my 50's and also highly qualified as i have for many years worked in both the garage and international transport industry, so dont be so condescending.

As to your statement about UK people declaring their modifications , i am sure a fair proportion do, but equally many do not. I can quote you of a trade press article some years ago now of a person who didnt inform the insurance of some shiny new alloy wheels he fitted to his lovely 5,000 pound car, which were subsequently stolen, and the car left on its brake hubs. Once the insurance inspector arrived the truth was out, and the insurance declined to pay for the replacement. Ok you say, but the sting in the tail is that the car, being on its hubs was recovered by a breakdown company with a roll off back truck, and having no wheels the operator dragged the car onto the bed with the winch, and subsequently damaged the floor pan from front to back. the repair estimate was more than the value of the car, and guess what? the insurance told the guy he wasnt covered by the insurance as he didnt declare the modification of the wheels when he fitted them, and as the damage was a result of the fitting , he was responsible , not them.

The car, unsurprisingly was scrapped.

Your other comment, "The aftermarket car industry , & we are not just talking about halfords & the bolt-on brigade , but the engineers , mec hanics, panel-beaters, vehicle refinisheres, trimmers, etc; etc; etc ; is a multi-billion pound business  & the complete loss of this would increase unemployment quite dramatically." appears to relate to the repair and maintenance of a vehicle, NOT modifications and aftermarket applications, which would of course not be affected in any way whatsoever as the legislation is to do with additional fitments other than OE, and also modifications.

So i think in general your flippant reply to my post is largely just hot air, and i am sure many contributors would agree with me. Regards, Rob






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25 Aug 2012 07:52 by theequaliser Star rating in Spain. 26 posts Send private message

theequaliser´s avatar

Being "Good Old Blighty" the people who do this are in the minority, and just drive their now "improved" banger around, and hope they are never found out!

I agree.

 What’s it all about. Who wants to waste good money on body kits and shinny wide wheels? These people are suffering from attention deficiency syndrome. They are the ones who drive around with the stereo on full blast with all the windows and sunroof open.

is a multi-billion pound business  & the complete loss of this would increase unemployment quite dramatically. What an exaggeration.

Don’t you mean multi-billion million pound toy industry for bored adults who have never quite grown up and found anything better to do.


Why not leave it to the F1 boys who know what they are doing and have a purpose.

TOY CAR

 

 


This message was last edited by theequaliser on 25/08/2012.

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25 Aug 2012 15:34 by K 5ive Star rating in Cambrils. 116 posts Send private message

So not into cars, well that's upto you. However you are talking about a very small minority of people with windows down and stereos. In other words you are stereotyping all car enthusiasts under one banner boy racers. The car tuning industry IS worth billions to the economy not millions. Many Small tuning firms depend upon everyday folk who just want  a bit more power or a bit better fuel economy via diesel tuning boxes. Classic car enthusiasts who improve their cars in order to stop and go better in otherwards make them far safer than they once would have been. You are talking about all these to name but few eh? You have a totally misguided view of the industry and obviusly know nothing about it. I don't play with my car so why should anyone else be allowed mentality.

Leave it to the F1 boys eh. So where would Team Lotus have got to if proposed laws like this were around in the 60's? As I seem to remember Colin Chapman started just tuning and tinkering with cars as did a great deal of others who are in the British car industry and F1 today. I can't remember when I last remember having read such uniformed tosh!


 


This message was last edited by K 5ive on 25/08/2012.



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25 Aug 2012 17:40 by robertt8696 Star rating in Midlands, UK. 479 posts Send private message

 I do agree with K5ive to a fair degree about modifications , when it comes to classic car enthusiasts restoring a classic car to its original specification, and specialist tuners who know what they are doing, but this legislation is not for that, and i think the thread is departing from its original intent.

His comment about the previous contributors opinion, and i quote,  "I don't play with my car so why should anyone else be allowed mentality." is i think a biteager to criticise. For instance, if someone modifys something on a production car it departs from its original specification, and therefore has not been properly tested, often to destruction. Only then does a vehicle model get passed for mass production and sale to the public. This is because of the testing, and as all are built using the same design can be deemed safe to use. Would you like to be in a car with modified brakes that have never been tested, inspected, and passed as safe, and a certificate issued? A car once moving is about a tonne of heavy steel with a high velocity, and would be hard to stop with inefficient brakes. Which would you prefer a safe car or a death trap? i know where i would prefer





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25 Aug 2012 17:53 by K 5ive Star rating in Cambrils. 116 posts Send private message

Modified cars already get tested and inspected, it's called the current MOT. I had a Rover SD1 Vitesse with a brand new Rangle Rover 4.6 V8 Engine, Jag XJS V12 brakes, coilover suspension to name but a very small few. This car was far superior and safer in every way to when it came off the production line, It stopped far quicker than most modern cars and out handled them. It was inspected every year by the perfectly good inspection that is the MOT and never failed. Why should people like me be stopped from building cars such as this just because a few don't like it?

Did we not fight a war for freedoms such as this? We are now giving them up by being dictated to by another country, ie Brussels.





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25 Aug 2012 19:42 by robertt8696 Star rating in Midlands, UK. 479 posts Send private message

 K5ive, i think you are missing the point, you mention building a rover SD1 car with a Range Rover 4.6 v8 engine fitted, from another TYPE of vehicle, a set of Jaguar XJS v12 brakes, another TYPE of vehicle, modified suspension, and numerous other modifications.With most changes the items then do not conform to TYPE approval, and then need testing and inspecting by  a engineer to verify that they are fitted and working efficiently, effectively, and most of all, SAFELY.

By taking something from one model of car and putting it in another the whole characteristics of the part, and indeed likely the car could change drastically, which is why, in England OR Spain the vehicle should be inspected as fit for use BEFORE presenting for an MOT or Spanish Metriculation. All MOT or Metriculation does is confirms that the vehicle, ON DAY OF PRESENTATION, conforms to the construction and use regulations in the country concerned. even the UK MOT states this on the certificate. So a modified or for that case, ANY car could leave its yearly test and within a short time , something break. This is far more likely with a modified, untested vehicle than a mass produced type approved vehicle, and why an engineers report should be made on any modification to the vehicle, to ascertain its roadworthyness, safety, and reliability.

I think everyone is getting away from the original thread and why the Spanish and EU are considering this legislation, which will be exactly the same in the UK 





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25 Aug 2012 19:51 by delza Star rating. 77 posts Send private message

did you really just bring the war into a conversation about vehicle modifications? lol

I don't know why everyone is getting their knickers in a twist it's already widely thought within the trade that if this law ever does come into force then the UK will just force you to have an ESVA test, much like when you bring a vehicle into the UK that does not have EU type approval. Granted, it's going to cost you a fair bit but in the end of the day if you want to modify a vehicle from it's original specification thus spitting in the eye of it's safety and type approval then you have to be prepared for an engineer to 'rip the car to bits' in a more advanced way than a basic MOT does, hence the ESVA test.


This message was last edited by delza on 25/08/2012.



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25 Aug 2012 20:03 by guslopez Star rating in Lorca, Murcia.. 745 posts Send private message

" Did we not fight a war for freedoms such as this? We are now giving them up by being dictated to by another country, ie Brussels."

Quite right & planned  by unelected commitees & passed by people with little idea of what it involves & the effect on different countries. They merely wish to get all the shepp meekly following along & being led by the nose. 



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25 Aug 2012 20:24 by robertt8696 Star rating in Midlands, UK. 479 posts Send private message

 guslopez, i think thats what people call democracy!

And delza, you state a very good point, the ESVA is the modern UK equivalent of the old single vehicle approval (SVA) which must be applied to all kit type cars, and any car modified in a way that makes it depart from single vehicle TYPE approval, so K5ive did your Rover Vitesse which was no longer a Rover Vitesse ever attain a SVA, or did you just submit it for MOT's? I quote, "It was inspected every year by the perfectly good inspection that is the MOT and never failed" 

As i said in an earlier thread ,"Being "Good Old Blighty" the people who do this are in the minority, and just drive their now "improved" banger around, and hope they are never found out!"

I think a fair amount of the problem with some Ex-pats is they think they can adopt the attitude they had in England , which did not wash well there, so escaped to another country, and then became an Ex-pat, not a englishman abroad. Wfen the authorites in their adopted area explain local law, which often is very much the same as english law, but was at best ignored by and large by the Ex-pat the person involved protests strongly about the injustice! Thank God most English abroad keep their head below the parapet and carry on quietly!





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25 Aug 2012 20:33 by K 5ive Star rating in Cambrils. 116 posts Send private message

my car WAS inspected by the MOT, insured with all modifications declared and engine was a ROVER V8 Engine a bigger internal version of what was already in it. This new law fights to stop us doing such things. My car was still a Rover! It did not need an SVA. SVA is for kit cars. I think it is you that are missing the point if you think every change on a car need to be inspected in england.


 


This message was last edited by K 5ive on 26/08/2012.



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25 Aug 2012 21:21 by robertt8696 Star rating in Midlands, UK. 479 posts Send private message

 K5ive, i read your reply with interest, you STILL seem to be missing the point the engine may have been a Rover Engine , but at the point the Rover vitesse was made, the engine size you had fitted was not fitted, or even available at that time or even ever after on the Rover SD1.

You say, " a bigger internal version of what was already in it." well it doesnt matter, where you miss the point is although made by the same motor manufacturer it was NOT designed for that car, and as such does not comply with that models TYPE approval.

You say that Single Vehicle Approval is for kit cars, well i have news for you, Single Vehicle Approval is for ANY vehicle that departs from its ORIGINAL SPECIFICATION, and as such is unique, which is why kit cars are so tested. If you think you can alter anything from its original manufacturers specification and not have to have it checked and passed fit for use, all i can say is i hope you never have an accident and kill someone.

As to your comment that SVA is for kit cars, SVA is for ALL cars that have been altered from their ORIGINAL MANUFACTURERS specification, and have departed from TYPE approval. SVA stands for SINGLE VEHICLE APPROVAL, which means the vehicle subjected singly to a ministry test is approved for use in the UK. All "grey import" cars have to have SVA BEFORE a MOT, as they have been made and TYPE approved outside the EU, typically Japan. It is "SVA" not KCA (kit car approval), and you should understand what SVA is, and not try to rubbish fact





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