Getting rid of a bad administrator.

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24 Jul 2012 11:07 by ossie1 Star rating. 36 posts Send private message

I live in a beautiful development in Nueva Andalucia, Marbella. The complex is about four years old and we were presented an Administrator by the developer. We blindly accepted the administrator and since then things have gone very badly. He could not be more disinterested. He ignore emails, looks into you eyes and tells you he will take action and then does absolutely nothing. You go back to him and he does the same thing again. The place is becoming a discrace. He is is quite cute by cleaning the place just before the Agm and when the President visits. (about 4 times per year).
I have now decided to become President at the upcoming 4th of August Agm. I have requested that an item Administrator. All aspects of the contract) be officially on the agenda. It was agreed by the current President but when the agenda was circulated this item was missing.
It is clear the administrator does not want it on the agenda.
I have written to him complaining about this and asked him to place the item as stated on the agenda. I did this yesterday and gave him two days to confirm it's inclusion. It is important because if not included he will continue as our bad administrator unchallenged for another year.
I have the proxi votes neccessary to be President.

Could I ask for advice on this subject. I intend to expose him for manipulation of the agenda at the meeting. Can I call for an extra ordinary meeting immediately after the meeting to remove him. What can I do to get rid of him without financial penalty to the community.

Can we have an Extra ordinary meeting without the administrator present, especially when we are discussing and voting on his future.

Does anyone know of any good administrators in our area. Any good gardeners, cleaners and caretakers. I want to replace all the lazy disrespectful workers (joke) from our community. I want to start again.

I would be grateful for any help and advice.

Thank you

Tom



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24 Jul 2012 11:37 by gerrryuk Star rating in Mezquitilla, near To.... 179 posts Send private message

gerrryuk´s avatar

 Bring it up under"Any other Business" of which every good Agenda has to have one as the last item prior to closing. 

Then prime everyone to voice their opinion and take a vote. The majority then takes it. (If it'a democracy).

You can't remove him after the AGM unless it's for gross misconduct & as Administrator he calls the meetings, unless you want an "informal meeting which is toothless. Perhaps call an informal prior to the meeting.

Wished I was their I'd love to take on the job, just my forte.

Job is such a doddle when running properly, the trick is the really hard work and delegation as to getting it right as quickly as possible to make everyone happy and on your side.

You can get almost anything off people when it is doing so well you ain't noticed, but a bad 'un is in the spotlight incessantly.

 


This message was last edited by gerrryuk on 24/07/2012.

_______________________
Do unto others as you would want them to do to you. I am always willing to talk and converse to ladies or gents in a sensible way.



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24 Jul 2012 12:02 by chris 2477 Star rating. 61 posts Send private message

I believe you can not take a vote on a subject in any other business. Remind the administrator that it is your legal right to have an item placed on the  agenda. Legally they can not refuse.

A few years ago the administration where i live refused an item to be put on the agenda. They were taken to court for refusing the item and lost.


 


This message was last edited by chris 2477 on 24/07/2012.



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24 Jul 2012 12:07 by gerrryuk Star rating in Mezquitilla, near To.... 179 posts Send private message

gerrryuk´s avatar

 No you can't, (if he knows the rules, that is!) but you can give "notice of Motion" that at an imminent Extra Ordinary meeting the role of the Administrator will be discussed.

 


This message was last edited by gerrryuk on 24/07/2012.

_______________________
Do unto others as you would want them to do to you. I am always willing to talk and converse to ladies or gents in a sensible way.



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24 Jul 2012 13:46 by manilvajl Star rating in Manilva as much as p.... 426 posts Send private message

Get 25% of owners to ask for an EGM to change the administrator, this connot be refused and then vote them out and a new one in. Use postal or email votes for those that cannot attend.

You call an EGM every few weeks if needed until you wear them down.

Also, if you know which administrator you want in advance get them to help you with the process, this will prove how good or bad the new one is likely to be.

We changed ours after 10 years because we wanted a local administrator not one 70 kilometres away.

_______________________

 Jeff




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24 Jul 2012 14:22 by Fighter2 Star rating. 237 posts Send private message

The administrator is required to be elected every year at the AGM, of course if there is no alternative it becomes a nod through so to speak BUT if you stand as president and administrator which is completly legal and within the laws of HPL you have a vote set up for the position of administrator, the administrator cannot disallow such a move and if he does keep all the documentation that proves the requests, including a Burofax request for the inclusion on the agenda of a vote for an administrator.

If you are daunted by the task don't be, get elected and then make contact with a good abogado that can advise on on legal matters on an as needs basis, you will probably need that abogado to force the administrator to pass over all community property...documents, contracts and bank access.

Don't be afraid just do it and he will limp off into the night. 

Barry





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24 Jul 2012 14:24 by Karensun Star rating in Orihuela Costa. 1474 posts Send private message

Karensun´s avatar

You cannot vote on items in any other business.

The post of Administrator, Secretary and president has to be voted EVERY year.....that is according to the HPL and unless your Urb statutes have been legally altered that is what you have to do. An Urb cannot vote to do anything that goes against Spanish Law.

So, vote yourself IN at the AGM and if you have enough votes to vote yourself in you will also have enough votes to vote him out.....and legally this MUST be voted on. Just bring it up yourself after you are voted in.

BUT, don't just vote another Administrator in MAKE SURE you physically vote the one you have now OUT.



_______________________
  ' Do unto others as you would be done by'
   
         Now a non-smoker !  



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24 Jul 2012 15:52 by ossie1 Star rating. 36 posts Send private message

I have attended all the Agm's in the past and a vote has never been taken on the appointment of the administrator. ( except for the first year). It is simply never brought up.
I was unaware as I am sure everyone else was that this was required by law.

So, Would it be correct to say. Get voted in first. Then immediately after the vote say. Now I would like to disscuss and vote on the Aministrator appointment for the incoming year as is required by the horizontal property laws. I then make sure we vote him out. Then we vote the new one in.
Is it that simple and can anyone foresee any problems.


Have I got his correct. I want to be sure of my ground as this one is very slippery.

Thank you I would appreciate your advice.

Tom ...



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24 Jul 2012 18:51 by Hosilverlining Star rating in Property owner in Gr.... 173 posts Send private message

As everyone says, voting the officers of the Community is a requirement of Spanish Law and must be on the agenda.  In any case it is the President who sets the agenda not the Administrator and aside from the required items has to include any item requested by an owner.  I spoke recently to someone in a similar situation, they had 25% owners willing and called an EGM just prior to the AGM - didn't tell the administrator (but informed all the owners of course) and took all the relevant votes to elect a new president and administrator, it was all done and dusted by the time the administrator turned up for the AGM..

As posted on other threads on this forum, not only is it a requirement in law that officers are elected at each meeting, but this cannot be overridden by any 'contract' the administrator has.  Just do it and let him fight if he wants to, the HPL is the winner here.  Good luck with the presidency - it is hard work if you want to get things done, and really it is not up to the administrator when cleaning or other work is done - sounds as though your current president can't be bothered!

Good book by Felix Lopez on HPL worth acquiring a copy if you are going to be president!





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24 Jul 2012 18:57 by laird dave of lochaber Star rating in San Miguel De Salina.... 180 posts Send private message

Hosilverlining,

Would be interested in further details oif the book you mentioned do you have the ISn number of the book?

cheers





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24 Jul 2012 19:03 by hosilverlining Star rating in Property owner in Gr.... 173 posts Send private message

 You will find it on Amazon but we bought it direct

 http://www.fljordan.com/ 

No reference it may be a private publication.  Lots of case law references and goes through the act section by section.





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24 Jul 2012 19:09 by Hosilverlining Star rating in Property owner in Gr.... 173 posts Send private message

24 Jul 2012 23:44 by manilvajl Star rating in Manilva as much as p.... 426 posts Send private message

The president is the equivalent to the md of a company and has legal and fiscal responsibity for the community and protection of community assets. The president would also represent the community In court if needed, but can pass this to the administrator by power of attorney if the president is non resident.

The administrator is employed by the community to collect fees, keep books, call meetings etc. and manage services e.g. Pool, maintenance, gardens under the control of the president.

The administrator is similar to a company secretary.


_______________________

 Jeff




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25 Jul 2012 12:26 by Fighter2 Star rating. 237 posts Send private message

Hi Tom

I would not suggest having an alternative administrator ready for the AGM, the easiest way would be for you to ask the AGM to appoint you as Presiodent / Administrator, which is fully allowed if you are an owner under HPL. Also ask the meeting to appoint a Secretary which should also be an owner.

At that point you have the committee set up and do not need an administrator, the fact that you have been elected as administrator gives total freedom to dispense immediately with your rogue administrator.

You will need to visit the bank with the minutes which can legally be produced by the Secretary and assume control of your community acounts and finance, the previous president will have to sign the minutes as well as you and the secretary.

If you then wish to appoint another Administrator you can take your time to select the right one OR do it yourself depending on the amount of work involved and other committee members will ing to help.

Good luck but do not tolerate another year of a poor administrator, we have been there done it and worn the tee shirt, now we have a successful and efficient  CoO run by owners for the owners...in my opinion it is the only way.and we have 750 villas at our urbanisation!!.

Regards

Barry 





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26 Jul 2012 16:09 by Jacksonsadmin Star rating in Marbella , Malaga. 78 posts Send private message

 Ossie 1 ; Having read your post & the replies to your situation I would advise the action set out below. The reason for this is I suspect the office holding administrator / secretary has a long term contract for some years & this is the reason he is not adding his election to the order of the day at your AGM.This contract  may be supported in the statues of the community giving him added security.The law of Spain is ultimately the ruler of the community not the statues but the matter would certainly lead to a court trial with legal costs of both your community's lawyers & the administrator up for award as well as the contract sum for it's duration.It is also worth noting that most courts are now asking for a formal meeting acta ( minutes) to confirm that the members have by majority agreed to the legal action proceeding.This can be dangerous for the members in the case of a loss in court as explained below in my paragraph on joint & several liability as it confirms they agrred to proceed to take a legal action.

Hence I  would advise a more cautious route to your change of administrator / secretary as follows:

Firstly become the President only .  State in the any other business section of the meeting that you will be reviewing the appointment of the Administrator / Secretary once you have full access to the community's records & legal documentation for examination.At this point  following your study of the same with the full facts of information available to you there may be reason for you as president to call a extraordinary meeting for the members to vote on related matters .

It is important as president you understand the outcome of your desicions can effect each member as a community is not a limited guarantee company but a group of individual owners who are all joint & severally liable in Spanish law for damages from a claiment.There is insurance that you can take out but this is not comprehensive.

So as president it is important to take the power of  the member's vote on major issues so that you are not liable to any one of them for entering into a legal action which is not in their interests . 

With the full records of the community at your disposal you are in a position to take advice professionally as to the correct legal way forward in changing your administrator / secretary both following the right path for your community & having taken the right precautions to protect both your member's interests & your own liablity.

This course of action will give you security & the time to appoint the correct administrator / secretary for your community if this is your chosen route.

In response to some of the comments it is not advisable to try to withhold the attendence of a appointed administrator from a formal meeting.If you are going to vote him out make sure you have a recorded delivery notice of the meeting wether called by the president or 25% of the community served on him within a reasonable notice period ( 7 calender days).

Any member can request by law in writing a addition to the agenda of a formal meeting up to 7 days prior to the date of the meeting.This service to be recorded to the secretary in writing,

Any other business is not a votable section of the meeting. A show of hands is possible to confirm the members views.

Finally remember the legal system in Spain is both long in duration & expensive. My advice is to try to avoid going to court when ever possible.

I hope this is of assistence.

F.Parkinson. Jacksons Administradores SL.

 


This message was last edited by Jacksonsadmin on 26/07/2012.

_______________________

f.parkinson @ jacksonsadministradoressl.es www.jacksons-group.com




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26 Jul 2012 17:12 by ossie1 Star rating. 36 posts Send private message

I have just read our community statutes,
The administrator,s contract is for two years. That is why we did not vote last year however his two years is up this month. Our AGM is on the 4th of August this year. Can we get rid of him now by voting him out in the 'election of officers' section of the meeting.
Bearing in mind I will be President just before the vote on his future would be taken.

Thank you.

Tom ...



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26 Jul 2012 17:16 by Karensun Star rating in Orihuela Costa. 1474 posts Send private message

Karensun´s avatar

The quick answer is yes. You need the item on the agenda to vote on it.

Spanish Law decrees the President, secretary and Administrator should be voted on each year at AGM.



_______________________
  ' Do unto others as you would be done by'
   
         Now a non-smoker !  



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26 Jul 2012 21:47 by Jacksonsadmin Star rating in Marbella , Malaga. 78 posts Send private message

 Ossie 1 ; 

Please note that the power of the president comes into force with all the other voted desicions at the point of signing of the minutes .These are to be signed at the end of the meeting ( not normal due to preperation & translations) or within 10 natural days of the meeting by law.The outgoing president & secretary are the persons responsible for signing  them.

F.Parkinson . Jacksons Administradores SL.



_______________________

f.parkinson @ jacksonsadministradoressl.es www.jacksons-group.com




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02 Aug 2012 15:15 by rioones Star rating. 8 posts Send private message

A particularly interesting thread for me, but which law says the minutes have to be signed within 10 natural days?

Thanks

 





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02 Aug 2012 16:10 by Karensun Star rating in Orihuela Costa. 1474 posts Send private message

Karensun´s avatar

The minutes being signed in 10 days is one thing which very rarely happens.............but there is nothing to say when the minutes have to be set out to owners!



_______________________
  ' Do unto others as you would be done by'
   
         Now a non-smoker !  



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