When did it all go wrong for some

rob said

''There are many reasons why people are not buying at the moment, obviously the current financial situation doesn't help, but the appalling reputation that Spanish property has isn't going to help.''

That's the bottom line, and until those cheated by various authorities like the banks, planning offices, and the very  justice system  that those cheated have to rely on, are comsensated, then that deserved reputation is not going to change. That's why it's so important for everyone to work towards an acceptable solution.

We know there was headless speculation, we know about bad agents from the UK, we know some were in it for a fast buck, but let's face it, the Spanish authorities were not only happy to go along with the greed but didn't even try and regulate it. The crooks from the UK knew they could get away with daylight robbery in Spain, so they just lied and cheated in line with those in positions of legal trust in the Spanish system!.

Nothing will change until the system is changed. Only when some trust in crucial buying and justice aspects is put in place will confidence be restored. What other option is there?.

Dear All,

much good stuff here though some have still not quite got it.

there are some difficulties in judging asking prices but there is no crash here in the sout-east that can be compared with Spain.

a dilapidated house here has just been sold on 0.8 of an acre for replacement with a single property for £400,000.

as I sit with my one finger efforts paying a ridiculously low mortgage in an off-plan property that has increased in value by £80,000+ in seven years I am minded by thoughts of my first house at £3,300 all those years ago that is now worth x100.

My downfall was the lawyer.............in league with the developer...........and of course the system that had developed etc.

"to say that lawyers who didn't do their job should be punished"

but he was so pleasant, young and polite, english, loved by his wife and adored by his mother - who could punish him for stealing my life's savings!!!!!

my suspension has been reprieved for now but in my absence it is good to see that the "happies" have moderated their despise of the "victims" to some extent and they are no longer openly charged with leaving their brains on the plane.

Regards

Norman

Exactly Bri and Rob and that is why there is the need for consumer protection wherever it be required. Without that protection in place, everyone is vulnerable.

I think we can all argue different cases of responsibility at the end of the day. But it’s important to move forward in a positive and effective way, and I for one prefer to focus on a way forward….

In my eyes, Spain needs effective regulatory controls at all levels if it is ever to re-establish trust and credibility (such as Faro described some time ago). It needs a law society that controls its members and effectively makes them accountable where malpractice exists, and a CGPJ (General Council of the Judiciary) that swiftly responds to complaints relating to the judiciary and consistency of law enforcement. It’s ironic that part of the CGPJ’s responsibility is “to maintain ethical standards within the legal profession. “. Well something’s gone wrong there then because I can’t see that ethical standards have been maintained!  It needs to ensure that existing laws such as Law 57/68 are actually enforced.

What it comes down to is that Spain desperately needs an effective system of justice, which is the basis to ensure accountability from all sectors within Spain, A fair and workable system of justice should act as protection against abusive practices that are decimating Spain's reputation. The starting point to me is for Spain to prove its credibility by honouring Bank Guarantees and enforcing successful legal judgements.

Until this is addressed then Spain will always be regarded as a vulnerable place to invest, a place that does not enforce the rule of law.

yes, any comparison between the UK and Spain with reards to supply and demand and legal issues when buying is just daft, as is the feeble excuse for wrong doing ......'This is Spain' . 

 Few people I think want Spain to be like the UK, but what people do want and expect as a bare minimum is common sense law, regulation and justice, and that would be the same requirement when buying in any country. Anthing less makes for a lack of confidence in the system, so is useless to the buyer or seller and hopelessly damaging to the property market involved.

Just how long will it be before the people and the powers that be in Spain 'get that' and do something about it though?, or will the property market and it's reputation just carry on in decline?

 OK  - I agree to disagree.  Only time will tell if the various problems with particular areas have an impact long term on the sale of property in Spain.  I still don't believe it will - how else can one explain the reason people from the UK  have invested so heavily in Turkey, Morocco, Cyprus, Dubai, The Domincan Republic - or any other place with such  well developed and trustworthy legal systems (tongue in cheek).  

Precisely, Brian.

Bri

I think you have answered your own question?.  People are looking for a viable alternative to Spain and in many cases have found similar problems in those alternative countries. Until those problems make big news though, some will in on a wing and a prayer sadly, and regret later.    Most new buyers can at least go armed with the knowledge of Spains reputation fresh in their minds and hopefully use that to their advantage.  Hopefully the authorities in the newer destinations will have learned from Spain also, but that's clearly often not the case. 

 No goodstich - I do not believe that to be the case.   People started going to these emerging markets because Spain got very expensive for the quality of the build.  And because they thought they could make money.  Absolutely NOTHING to do with problems in parts of Spain.  And I think the problems   a significant but relatively small number of people have had in Spain are nothing to the problems already being encountered in some of these markets, all be it by smaller numbers.  

Bri, given the problems that have been identified and their effects to date,  do you agree with the need for regulation in Spain, since it is Spain that this thread relates to, or do you see an alternative solution?

Bri

well certainly value for money has had an influence on people buying in alternative countries, but for instance I have two friends who bought in Turkey, not to make a fast buck but mainly due to the problems in Spain that many of us have experienced first hand . Both have had issues in Turkey, but not been cheated by crooked agents, lawyers or the developers, though one of the developers has since gone bust.  I agree the emerging markets will and do have problems, and if their regulation, planning and consumer protectection is as bad as Spain's, then I have no doubt the same problems and reputation will exist.

Along with market forces, Spain's reputation is no doubt reducing the amount of people buying and of course the ability to sell.  If there was more confidence and trust in the system then many wouldn't have looked so hard for an alternative. Spain would have been the choice for many who have gone elswhere.

 I certainly support people who are trying to get their money back, but I don't know enough about the legal system in Spain to say whether or not it needs an overhaul.   I was happy with my house buying process - in fact the only country I have been slightly uneasy with was the USA - when everything was completed without having to leave England!! And I simply believe you cannot regulate against something like the economic crisis, which effectively has made everything much worse.     I support the restriction of housing development along the coast, and I have always been against the building of 'country clubs' in fragile environments - like the Tabernas Desert.  So I guess I come  from a slightly different view point.    The point I am trying to make is that Spain is not the only country to have 'issues', and indeed, their are many screaming for an overhaul of our own legal system in the UK- including legal aid, the compensation culture etc etc.  I do see a steady stream of people on these threads who continue to get money back - all be it painfully slowly, and I remain optimistic that people will receive their money back.    I simply do not see the relatively localised  problems as leading to the destruction of all things Spanish, which is what often comes over in these threads. 

Bri

well I was optomistic about getting my money back for a long time.  I found it very hard to believe that despite winning my court case, the courts own nearly two year delay would rob me of justice and my life's savings. I thought 'surely I must get compensated for this', I'd done nothing wrong, had that fact proved in court and without even an appeal from the developer.  But no, I've ultimately been robbed by the justice system there to provide justice!!.   Mine is one case in hundreds, probably thousants of various issues of injustice including lack of bank guarantees, planning issues, corruption issues etc.  If you magnify that number by all those who hear about it, then the reputation is set, and will only be changed when those wronged are given justice by way of compensation and mearsures put in place to give confidence that this will not happen to others in future.  Despite all the evidence in the petitions and countless letters written to the Spanish government and MEP'S, not much has really changed apart from awareness of the reality for many victims. 

Thanks for the explanation and I understand your concerns but I have to stress here that believe me (and thousands of others stuck in the justice system),  the system is currently a nightmare in Spain and compromises innocent people at every stage. I was hoping that you would have understood this by now, after all the explanations that have been presented over time on EOS.

Anyway suffice to say that there has been a major injustice relating to offplan purchase and the provision of Bank Guarantees in Spain, and Keith and Ruth are doing their utmost to bring this to the attention of the Spanish Government and many more besides.

As for the planning and illegal builds issue it's unbelieveable that in this day and age a Government can turn round without any compensation package in place and say retrospectively, sorry folks but your property is now illegal, having gone through all the correct legal processes for purchase. They should have controlled their regional governments from the outset,  controlled the planning, and any lawyers / developers who have knowingly been involved in any abuse should be made accountable.

I agree that it is hopeful when we see cases of recompense filtering through, but there is a long way to go before anyone can safely  state it is safe to buy in Spain.

I think it's worth pointing out that there is another thread on this forum showing the amount in euros of LOST deposits.

It's now up to 500 MILLION euros on just 14 developments from the Costa Blanca to the Costa Del Sol.

These are the developments which haven't been built & never will be.

On Trampolin Hills in Murcia, 2900 buyers have paid 60,000,000 euros, all of which has gone, no one seems to know where. Yes, the buyers had all the right paperwork including bank guarantees, all was OK according to the lawyers. However, the dveloper didn't own the land, the local mayor who granted the planning permission worked for the developer & the guarantees were issued by a bank NOT licensed in Spain to issue a BG.

NO lawyer picked up on any of this.

There is NO comeback! The buyers have lost their money. They were not stupid or greedy, they did what everyone here says they should, they checked, they used lawyers & still they lost.

So the developer has been arrested, so what? 2-3 years prison possibly & then off to collect his 60 million.Big deal!

Half a BILLION euros on 14 developments & some people still say there isn't a problem with Spanish property.

 Ads, I do understand that some people are caught in the justice system, and some innocent people are out of pocket.  I have always said I understand this.  What I do not understand is the inability to accept that there are a lot of people out there happy with their purchases who have not fallen foul of the legal system. I don't understand why I have to wear the hair shirt for the shortcomings of some parts of some systems.   And I am afraid I do know of situations in the UK where people have lost out on property legally owned because of land development given the go ahead by (allegedly) corrupt town halls.    AND as the parent of a solicitor I rather resent the attitude which is tied up in all of this that all lawyers are crooks - whether here or in Spain, while at the same time, I am surprised and rather horrified by the faith often shown (by comparison) in our own legal system!! 

What you say is true, Brian.  It is very rough that some were caught in a fraud.  But, as you correctly say, it could happen anywhere.   Every day on this forum there is an announcement of yet another person who managed to retrieve his or her money.  Which shows that cases are being resolved.

There are many hard-working, honest and ethical lawyers.  You have a relative who is a lawyer, and I have several good friends who are lawyers, and I know they are ethical people.

Patricia

Re-reading your post, Brian.  And I echo what you say.

So, bumping your post up here again

"I certainly support people who are trying to get their money back, but I don't know enough about the legal system in Spain to say whether or not it needs an overhaul.   I was happy with my house buying process - in fact the only country I have been slightly uneasy with was the USA - when everything was completed without having to leave England!! And I simply believe you cannot regulate against something like the economic crisis, which effectively has made everything much worse.     I support the restriction of housing development along the coast, and I have always been against the building of 'country clubs' in fragile environments - like the Tabernas Desert.  So I guess I come  from a slightly different view point.    The point I am trying to make is that Spain is not the only country to have 'issues', and indeed, their are many screaming for an overhaul of our own legal system in the UK- including legal aid, the compensation culture etc etc.  I do see a steady stream of people on these threads who continue to get money back - all be it painfully slowly, and I remain optimistic that people will receive their money back.    I simply do not see the relatively localised  problems as leading to the destruction of all things Spanish, which is what often comes over in these threads. 

campana & bri:

For the record I'm not knocking Spain. 

I love the Country which is why I bought property there with no problems.

I'm also fully aware that no-one can legislate for the current economic situation.

That doesn't stop me however from seeing that many others have had problems through no fault of their own.

I quite accept that it's a minority compared to the happy & successful buyers but still a substantial number of people have been ripped off & let down by the Spanish legal system.

Yes, there is a steady trickle (NOT a stream) of people on here who have 'won' their cases & some have even got their money back, but not many.

When a court can ORDER a Spanish bank to pay out on a BG & that bank chooses to ignore that order & nothing is done, there is a problem.

From a selfish point of view this does affect me. As a normal human being it affects me.

I am not complaining about UK lawyers although there are a number who have commited fraud & have also proved to be incompetant. The difference between Spain & the UK is of course that there is a Law Society compensation fund & the UK legal system is 'mostly' on the side of the buyer & it is definitely FASTER.

It certainly isn't perfect here but the legal system here generally works as it should.

Spain doesn't need any new laws, I'm not asking Spain to change so it's like the UK. All I want is for Spain to enforce the laws they already have, & I don't think that's too much to ask.

Rob:

I understand what you are saying.   And of course one has empathy for people who have been ripped off.  It is a very rough state of affairs, and these people are quite right to seek redress and a refund of their money.  Much could be done IMO to accelerate burocracy in Spain. 

As you say:

"I quite accept that it's a minority compared to the happy & successful buyers "

You have been able to say that today in your post, Rob, without having abusive language hurled at you.

Patricia

Bri,

For the record I never said that all lawyers are crooks, and certainly never would. I said that those who knowingly were involved, and there lies the difference. Of course there are some ethical lawyers in Spain. I just wish that they would come together to rid the system of those who give their profession a bad name. And there are methods that are recognised in the western world to do this (as identified by Faro), so it doesn't require a major rethink. The evidence will demonstrate where the truth lies so I think we need to draw a line under this.

Also the assumption that those who are fighting for justice want the coastal area compromised in any way is also a wrong assumption. But the Government got themselves into this mess and need to provide compensation to those who put their trust in the law as it existed  and should not be made the scapegoats for lack of controls by a Government that allowed regional governments to run roughshod all in the name of profit. Likewise, wrong assumptions are being made that we don't understand that many are happy in Spain, who achieved their aims without major problems. Of course we do...... but again that does not detract in any way from need to find a solution to this continuing problem in Spain.

We are going round in circles here and don't seem to be making headway on a possible solution within this debate, so it's best I leave it there.

Here' s to a solution that will allow everyone to reach a happy conclusion and for others to be spared a repeat of this nightmare. Rob has explained the situation succinctly so thanks for that Rob.