The August 2009 EGM

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16 Aug 2009 18:14 by irenemontague Star rating in liverpool/carvajal . 794 forum posts Send private message

Hi max all good points but the community  does need to set up some rules and most of the rules should be of commonsense to us all so we can all agree and these as a starting point for the community bye Irene




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16 Aug 2009 18:16 by max! Star rating in Fuengirola. 944 forum posts Send private message

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 An example of a very simple set of rules which basically asks you to conform to the law and be a respectable neighbour:

General Rules 

Please be considerate to others at all times. This is a small friendly community, and we wish it to stay this way. We try to be more relaxed with our rules than many other communities in this area. We have permanent residents as well as holiday home owners and rentals. 

With mutual respect everyone can have a good time. 


Zero Tolerance Rules 

No glass or chinaware is permitted in the community area. Drinks are permitted in plastic containers only. 
No smoking is permitted in the community area. 
No food is permitted in the community area. 
No topless bathing in the poolside area. 
No animals in the community area. 
No noise from pool usage after 23.00. 
No sun beds around pool area after 22.00. 
No pool toys to be left around or in pool after 22.00. 
No Jumping.


Pool Rules 

Pool opening times are as follows 
Summer time , April thru October 08.00 – 24.00, please keep noise to a minimum level after 22.00. 
Winter time, November thru March 08.00 – 22.00. 

There are a set of rules located by the pump house which you should make yourself familiar with. At first glance there look to be so many that you cannot enjoy yourself. This is certainly not the case or our intention, you must use common sense, if the pool is empty then ballgames and inflatables are permitted. 

USE YOUR COMMON SENSE AND RESPECT OTHER BATHERS 

Evening Rules 

Please note that there are strict laws in Spain governing noise after midnight. You really do not need the Police turning up and spoiling your holiday. 




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16 Aug 2009 22:07 by Rene35 Star rating in Holland. 87 forum posts Send private message

Hi Max

I don't understand what you want to achieve with your posts.

I think the rules we made are fair and not that bad at all.

We had a lot of work on this document so I don't accept shouting from the side line without proper proposals.

If you do not agree please come up with a additional comments so we can discuss and add these before the meeting.

Its better for all of us to work together instead of choosing the objection side.

Because the community make the rules not only the community board.

So far Gordon Talamon is the only one who had a great contribution to the existing rules.

Best regards,

René



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16 Aug 2009 22:18 by Rene35 Star rating in Holland. 87 forum posts Send private message

How to control the rules:

Its in every owners responsebility that if someone sees a violence of the rules to speak to the people who are violating the rules.

For example if I see someone with a ball in the swimming pool I would ask if they read the sign that it is prohibited.

This is the only thing we can do so we have to do it.

I see it as a social responsebility of all neighbours.

For example for deptors who really don't pay anything I want to play the game very hard.

No access to the pool no parking of cars in communial area, two warnings then wheel lock (only allowed in communial street)

We are thinking about a pass system for the pools to close out deptors.

What I want to make clear is that the rules are not the rules from the community board but from the community itself

If you have good additions or good ideas please let us know about it.

We will take allin consideration for the new set of rules.

Best regards,

René

 

 



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16 Aug 2009 22:41 by irenemontague Star rating in liverpool/carvajal . 794 forum posts Send private message

Hi i have read most of the rules and regulations and i am not happy with a lot of this sorry to say and i will be a pain at the meeting that is if i am allowed to speak at all bye Irene



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16 Aug 2009 23:01 by max! Star rating in Fuengirola. 944 forum posts Send private message

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 Rene,

I already posted an alternative set of rules which emphasizes personal responsibility.  What I also did was posting a more philosophical post about the nature of rules. Just scroll back in this thread to read it. This was far before the committee came up with these rules. 

I also discussed this with you in person.

What I don't understand is why this draft could only be published just before the meeting. I know this has been done intentionally so maximize the chance it will be voted for, but it makes no sense from a democratic point of view. I'm pretty sure there would have been lots of neighbours willing to participate in brainstorming and finalzing this draft but we were never asked. I have repeatedly asked the committee (in private and publically) to publish early drafts to broaden acceptance and improve overall quality. I never got a response.

You point out that it are the rules from the community instead of the community board, but you never asked people to participate. How many people actually want this set of rules? 

There are people with cats which now have to do the impossible: get them on a line. There are regulations stating that people have to fix commercial signs to 'bars' while most penthouses and semi-sotanos don't have 'bars' so that rule is discriminatory. There are people with dogs who can no longer visit their friend or their own homes now.  All 'installations' have to be beneath the 'bars' AND be not visible. Again not all apartments have bars and in a lot of cases installations will be more visible if they are low then if fixed higer due to the height differences so the rule defeats its own purpose.

What we all want is a sensible set of rules which emphasizes personal responsibility and which is supported by a large majority of people so that sanctions are a rare resort. This draft doesn't reach that goal.  

 




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16 Aug 2009 23:05 by max! Star rating in Fuengirola. 944 forum posts Send private message

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 I wrote this on the 29th of July and it's still valid. As Rene apparently missed it maybe others did as well so I will repeat it. 

Hi all,

 
We are getting close to the 29th of August EGM meeting so it would be wise to start preparing it. In my view there are two important subjects on that agenda; the budget and a concept for the rules and regulations of the community. Let's start with the rules.
 
We need rules so it's important to think about them ahead of that meeting. There are communities with very elaborate sets of rules and there are some with basic guidelines. From my experience sitting on a committee in a community in Amsterdam my view is that you should only make rules you are able to maintain. All other regulations just create frictions between neighbours without any way to police or enforce them.
 
Our current situation is that we don't have a security guard nor a concierge so it will be a huge effort to make sure people live by the set of rules we agree to. We also have limited influence on the people living or using Don Juan as lots of them are short or long term renters. If rules are violated on a regular basis they will not only create conflicts between neighbours, but they will erode as they can't be maintained. For example we already have a few regulations regarding aircon, awnings and private satellite dishes and they have never been enforced. After a Spring 2008 letter pointing out that it should be corrected there has never been a follow up and the result is that most of the offenders didn't correct it.
The same goes for the swimming pool regulations. Ball games, floating beds, drinking at the pool side etc are all prohibited but yet these thing occur and there is no way to stop people without employing a security guard.
 
My opinion is that we better create a very basic set of guidelines stating that you are not allowed to affect the architectural looks of the building, to disturb your neighbours and that you have to act as a responsible member of the community instead of a detailed list of do's and don'ts. The advantage would be that we can be selective and be harsh on things which are really important and ignore what we can't influence. That way you don't get the erosion of the regulations which will occur if we make a hundred rules which are regularly ignored. 
 
It would be good if more people voiced their opinions in preparation of the August EGM. Do you want detailed rules or do you agree to the above, how do you want to enforce the rules etc.
 
Max




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16 Aug 2009 23:48 by irenemontague Star rating in liverpool/carvajal . 794 forum posts Send private message

Hi firstly who is Gordon talamon a owner a committee man?and why where we not asked what we want for our rules for our community?
What are the expenses the committee can claim and when are they going to  published them?
Why where we not able to view these rules and regulations well  before they where sent out so we can all be read them and or change them before the egm  as it is only 13 days to go ?bye irene
 



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17 Aug 2009 00:01 by Rene35 Star rating in Holland. 87 forum posts Send private message

Hi Irene

I had only one day to review and was too late

Gordon is a neighbour who send a concept 6 months ago

You can comment the rules, please review and send in

We need your opinion too!

Ofcourse we cannot fullfill 100% everybodies opinion but we will look at it carefully

So 13 days must be enough to send the review

 

 



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17 Aug 2009 10:43 by max! Star rating in Fuengirola. 944 forum posts Send private message

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 I spoke to Rene yesterday evening and he was not even aware that dogs were no longer allowed in communal gardens. Neither was he aware of other issues and misconceptions. The best way out which he agreed to was to postpone the actual decisions until the official AGM in February and use the time to discuss and improve this draft set of rules.

We need rules, but we don't need a rush job full of errors and not reflecting what owners actually want. The committtee has in silcence been  working on this from last November until mid August. It's seems reasonable to give the other 195 owners some chance to read and reflect on this draft. 

At the August EGM I would propose the establishment of a committee of neighbours (residents and non residents) to identy the real issues. They should then report to the committee end of December and come up with a well thought through set of rules.  This draft can then be send to the community lawyer to check on legal issues and be presented at least four weeks before the Feb AGM meeting to all owners . I think this would improve the chance that a new set of rules is really accepted by the whole community as well as maintainable.




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17 Aug 2009 15:25 by irenemontague Star rating in liverpool/carvajal . 794 forum posts Send private message

Hi Rene i will forword a list of what i think we need in our rules  on a smaller scale ,but i will not except or vote for a illegal rule to be voted on bye irene



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17 Aug 2009 16:33 by Rene35 Star rating in Holland. 87 forum posts Send private message

Thanks Irene,

I will look at it and take into account.

Best regards,

René

 



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17 Aug 2009 17:31 by max! Star rating in Fuengirola. 944 forum posts Send private message

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 Hi Rene,

Change the rule 'dogs are forbidden in garden zones' into the 'dogs are not allowed in flower beds' like you understood it to be.

Change anonimous voting into unanimous voting in 32g. Change it again to get it into line with 17a which states a normal majority for rule changes. 

art. 9 g an h need an explanation

art. 9 l demands good behavior and consideration especially against the committee members? So we can be locked out of of the pool if we don't greet the president?

17b has to be changed. It's the competence of the owners to approve minutes.

26b omits the word 'by'. The same procedure should be described for the president and vice-president.

 art. 16 is confusingly worded and should be rewritten to distinguish between AGM's and EGM's

32g violates 11i if option 1 is choosen

etc etc.

There are several areas where the law on horizontal property is either not properly represented or sometimes violated. 

The list of errors, confusions, spots where the rules don't respect the law etc is too long to fix in a fortnight. 

Let alone the all import question if we all want these specific rules. Why are unattended children allowed in the pool area and are balls forbidden. These discussions should be the first on the to do list. Only after establishing the wishes of the majority of the owners you can start the process to carefully write them down and make sure they conform to the law (and are written in proper English). 




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17 Aug 2009 19:31 by irenemontague Star rating in liverpool/carvajal . 794 forum posts Send private message

Hi we should not rush into setting the rules with out taking the best ideas of people at don juan this is your community and your rules to vote for irene



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17 Aug 2009 19:52 by irenemontague Star rating in liverpool/carvajal . 794 forum posts Send private message

Hi i read this and think it was worth reading before we change things  Irene. I hope the system of keys works out for that community. A large (500+ units) complex near me (I used to own a property there) put up, at great expense, fences and turnstiles around the pools a couple of years ago, and issued electronic cards to operate the turnstiles, that could be activated and de-activated by a central computer. Apart from a few fence jumpers, and people passing their cards through the fence to their mates, it seemed to work reasonably well for the first summer. Now however it seems competely broken down, and the gates are permanently open. A lot of money wasted, it would seem, in a community where some owner's debts are already into 5 figures!



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18 Aug 2009 19:42 by westport Star rating in London & Co.Mayo Ire.... 500 forum posts Send private message

I don't recall seeing any no smoking signs within the grounds of the pools. Correct me if I am wrong. I would like this to be the case in the new rules. I've just had to cut my holiday short to return to the UK to attend my aunts funeral. She died of lung cancer. She never smoked or drank in her life, but because she loved playing bingo in smoke filled halls for the last 40 years, she had been breathing in everyone elses cancer sticks. Hopefully this rule can be implemented seeing as so many kids play around the pool.

I think the location of the signs for the do's and dont's is completely in the wrong area. I never saw one person go up and read it. I think the rules should be be on 2 posts located directly in front of you as soon as you walk in the gate, NOT on the gate, as when the gate is opened, the sign is reversed. The signs should be in picture format, like a no smoking sign within a red circle and a red line through it, also in large letters the word " NO " in alternative languages, so every nationality can understand the rules. Maybe the maintenance guy that checks the water quality could enforce the rules as a lot of the owners will not wish to cause an argument with others.

The inflatable rings/toys issue I think is a bit more difficult to decide on. I think if used properly, then I don't see a problem. Problem is, whilst there, there was always 2 kids in particular that was ruining it for everyone else on a daily basis, kicking footballs across the pool, throwing balls at others heads that were in the pool, and missing a number of times, where the ball would hit someone lying out trying to enjoy their holiday, also doing somersaults into the pool over peoples heads and jumping in landing in areas where small children and toddlers in armbands with parents were learning to swim causing some of the toddlers to cry because they were frightened. I saw one family pack up and move to the other pool because they had had enough of it.  I must admit, it was pi**ing me off as well.  They had total disrepect for others running around shouting their heads off. I don't think their parents were with them on any day. This is another rule that should be brought in that children under a certain age should be supervised by an adult at all times. I am no "Bar Humbug", which for those of you that don't understand this meaning, it means a " Miserable B*st&rd ", I am a parent myself with a young child. I certainly don't expect children to sit quietly reading a book by the pool, but unfortunately what I saw was a bit too much. Had the parents been there to supervise them at all times, maybe things would have been different. A number of people around the pool said the same thing to me. Hopefully somehow these types of problems can be resolved at the meeting. I know it won''t be easy.

Westport




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19 Aug 2009 17:27 by Jenx Star rating. 120 forum posts Send private message

With the best will in the world, no one can regulate the behaviour of others. Yes, there is considerable bad behaviour by the pool between blocks 8 and 10 -  unaccompanied children screaming their heads off disturbing others not only by the pool but also in the apartments. On some days, there is significant noise created by screaming youngsters late into the evening which is bordering on being a nuisance.

We must all take personal responsibility for our, and our children's, behaviour - this is a good starting point for a nice. friendly community. Having a security guard will not necessarily prevent bad behaviour or abuse of the rules - we do not want a constant stream of altercations/ arguments on what is a subjective issue - what is unacceptable behaviour to one person may be normal to another and there are no defined limits on either. A security guard will find it difficult to police this particular aspect unless there is clear evidence of abuse or the existence of a danger for a person due to the behaviour of another.

It is essential to implement rules for our community soon before matters get out of hand such as external building alterations, hanging of laundry on communal fences etc. We need rules which are enforeceable, so we must build procedures into our rules which will enable defaulters to be dealt with in accordance with our rules. The threat of and the availability of sanctions are not the same as the actual exercise of those sanctions - no action will often equal no change in attitude/behaviour.

There is some disagreement in the proposed rules. May be the way forward is to tabled these proposals for discussion at the EGM and the (amended) rules be adopted at the AGM. The disadvantage of this suggestion is that there is almost a 6 month window for some to make alterations which will not ultimately be acceptable to the community - so we should have a moratorium for the same period for any applications for modifications etc until the rules are in operation to prevent exploitation and abuse.

 




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20 Aug 2009 17:21 by Janmet Star rating in UK. 184 forum posts Send private message

 
I see there appears to be a war on smokers, I personally feel this is discrimination against smokers. What harm is a smoker doing to anyone else apart from himself,  relaxing at the pool with a cigarette. As long as they dispose of their fag ends. I think this is taking rules to far and if they ban smoking they should also ban eating, drinking, chewing, sniffing I could say more but it gets a bit rude.
 
Oh and why not ban swimming just in case you splash someone.


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21 Aug 2009 21:07 by max! Star rating in Fuengirola. 944 forum posts Send private message

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 Hi guys,

 
I already aired the opinion that the proposed rules would be illegal. They were send to us on very short notice so it took me some time to clarify things further. I have subsequently studied them more intensely, looked at the law and finally asked a legal opinion about it. The conclusion is still the same: they are illegal.
 
To explain why, it's important to distinguish between internal rules and community statutes. I did explain part of it in an earlier e-mail to David but for the sake of others I will expand on it. If you find all this too long and winding skip to the summary below :)
 
The statutes contain all the formal binding principles which govern our community. In a large part they are replications of parts of the horizontal law, but they also establish community specific things like date of the AGM, role of the vice-president, election procedures, accounting procedures etc.
 
Normally these are passed at the same time as the 'Escritura de declaration de obra nueva y propiedad horizontal. Sometimes they are even contained in it. In our case this has at least partially happened as in our own title deeds there are a few provisions copied from the above mentioned 'escritura'. F.i. the provision that gardens can't be tiled, decked etc. is lifted straight from that document.
We also got handed out a copy of Statutes at the notary, but these mentioned another development so we so far have ignored these. Without reading the above mentioned 'escritura' I can't say if these statutes are actually included or not.
 
The proposed rules by the committee are for 90 percent the equivalent of Statutes. We can only pass these as we are sure we don't conflict with existing terms in the above mentioned documents. Also the establishment or adjustment of Statutes has to be announced on the agenda as such and unanimity is needed to have them passed.
 
After passing statutes they have to be registered at the Land Agency which will check if they were correctly passed and by that they will subsequently be binding for everyone (current and future owners).
 
So we first have to research what we currently have. Then act on these findings.
 
The proposed document contains some internal rules f.i. in article 32 but even there there are further reaching proposals which afffect possible Statutes.
 
Within the rules there is also the problem of illegal sanctions. We are not allowed to deprive any owner of his rights to communal property. It's explicitly forbidden by law and as such null and void.
 
The fourth problem is that not all rules are clear or enforceable as not all owners contain 'bars' on their balconies etc.
 
The fifth problem is that the English version is quite different from the Spanish one.
 
 
 

Summary of problems:

the document violates the law in several fundamental ways, is badly translated and is not always clear or workable.
 
My proposal is that the committee changes the agenda and explains the above. Subsequently appoints a working group of neighbours who formulate a proposal for internal rules for which they try to find a broad platform. The committee can meanwhile check what the legal situation is and see what has to be done with the Statutes. This preferably with the assistance of a competent lawyer. If this work is done it can be put on the agenda for a future meeting.
 
Best regards,
 
Max



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21 Aug 2009 21:32 by westport Star rating in London & Co.Mayo Ire.... 500 forum posts Send private message

I think we should all sit around the pool with marijuana joints and make the rules, everyone chill out, the smokers will be happy, the rule makers will be happy, everyone will be happy !!! Could be quite a night :-)




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