Exchange Rate in Mojacar

Just a quick update as I don’t want to interfere with the ‘community matters’ thread where people discuss the future of DJ.

As we now use the water pumps the water pressure is too high for most people. It’s now better for the people on the top floors, especially on the buildings near the top of the hill. Unfortunately for the rest of the people the water pressure is higher than common appliances, tabs, etc, can endure. We are working on a solution (pressure regulators for each block) but it’s expensive and not yet implemented. We want to be sure this really solves it before we spend the money.

The water shortage today was the result of interference with the pumps by the guard of phase II (Tigo in case you know him). He is sabotaging our water supply for months now. He closes tabs for the communal gardens (one reason they are not as green as we want), reprograms the computers which control the gardens, sometimes destroys them. Ever since we started operating the pumps he (on instruction of Arrohabitatge) tries to sabotage that as well. The more pressure we get the more water we use and as our not so friendly developer doesn’t want to pay the bills they pay him to sabotage it. The second reason is that they want their gardens to be watered and the less we get the more they get.

We changed the lock of the pump building two or three times by now, but it is broken open on a regular basis. Formally we don’t know who does it, but people do see what happens. We have sent him a letter that he is not allowed on Phase I premises, but that doesn’t stop him. Our security guard starts working at 11.00 P.M and he starts at or before 7.00 PM so he has four hours to do what he wants.

So in case you were out of water today you know why. The question is how to prevent this to happen in the future, but there is no easy answer to it. The pumping station is formerly property of Arrohabitatge as long as phase II and II are not completed. At the other hand they should provide us with a working water supply and they do the opposite. It will be easier to find a solution after the new water company has taken over and we have regular contracts with them.

Max

Hi when the water pressure is to high can we in our apts lower this ?? bye the tap in the shower room?? bye irene

There is a difference between pressure and flow rate. You can reduce the flow rate by closing the master tap in the bathroom then opening it half a turn. However as the pressure is still high the pressure on taps, washing machine and water heater will still be the same. The only solution is pressure regulators. 

Hi Irene, sorry the pressure will be the same when you close the main tap in the shower room a little, it will reduce only the flow but pressure will be the same
Law of Physics

Reply on Max
If the replaced lock is broken, real evidence should be gathered  to find the guilty ones
If there was a witness, every event should be reported to the police station.
Only then we will have a strong case.

Even better there should be an agreement wiht Arrohabitatge with some rules stated what they can and cannot do for using the water by entering premisses of DJ1
One rule must be int there thas water priority of appartments is higher than the water priority from the gardens
Another one, Commitee of DJ1 will be keyholder and can give Tico approval for access every time he wants to enter the premisses

Best regards,
René

It is disgusting what Tico does, however I would think he has very little choice but to do what he is told. There is no doubt he is just  the developers puppet and is carrying out orders to protect his Job. if all the members reading this can get involved and put foward suggestions on how to solve this. Quote "Many heads are better than one". Come on lets stand united, the water problem will eventually affect everyone in Phase 1.

MY SUGGESTION
I think we should maybe ask the police what we can do about it.

With regards to water pressure situation is it just the shower heads that are breaking? or is it causing problems with other things? If it is the shower heads then all you need to do is replace them with a couple good quality heads as the original heads supplied by the developer are useless and are prone to breaking we replaced ours back in April with a couple of 'Grohe' heads (not too expensive about €20 each I think) but they are absolutely fabulous with the current pressure. Also if you do not want the pressure so much don't open the tap fully.

Not only showerheads are failing. Washing machines start leaking, taps fail or come loose and the whole infrastructure seems to suffer as I see leakages in the water cabinets. The reason block 2 had no water for a day was also due to a broken main pipe due to the high pressure.
In block 10 two apartments are ruined and several others damaged by a tap which just broke off.

going to the police is difficult. Officially we are at the wrong side of the law as we broke open the pumping station which is not ours. The lawyer of Arrohabitatge urges us to hand over the keys to the new lock(s) as we are not the rightful owner. 

Settling or negotiating with Arrohabitatge has been tried many times. We only get responses from their lawyer threatening to go to court. They don't want to talk.

Max 

BTW opening your main tap just a bit doesn't help for the pressure issue as explained by David and Rene.

Hi raj we put a new shower head on in the bathroom  in april but when my son went out the pressure was low the 2 week and he could not have a shower in the bathroom good job we did not change the shower head in the shower room as that was better bye irene

Hi All,

This excess water pressure is very serious and could potentially effect anyone & everyone. 5 euros to replace a shower head isn’t a big problem(and I've had to do it myself) but a major leak in a high level apartment could cause thousands of euros of damage, not only to that apartment but to all the other apartments below, especially if the leak happens in a block where the apartments not occupied at the time - the leak could go undetected for days. 

One temporary solution could be to have your water turned off at the mains especially for those people that are not resident in their apartments for long periods of time. I know that this is possible because I have seen the water supply room on the Planta Baja level in my block. Max, who would be the correct person to ask to have your water turned off at the mains.....?

Does anyone have any other ideas to reduce the risk of leaks/floods?

Regards, Andy 

Anyone leaving their apartment can safeguard it by turning off the master valve (the single one usually high up in the shower room) and then opening a tap to release the pressure in the internal pipework. 
The maintainance man and cleaner both have keys to the agua rooms but I would not be in favour of closing all the valves in unoccupied apartments as this would recreate the problems experienced in block 1 when someone (who doesn't understand physics) thought they could increase the pressure in their apartment by shutting off the supply to everyone else's.

You all received a letter from Gestaqua in your mailbox. The information in it is not correct. It states that all problems are now solved and that you have to go the office to sign a private contract. In reality this is not possible at the moment as there is no contract with the community as a whole. This is a prerequisite for private contracts.

The situation is quite tense as Gestaqua threatens to cut us off tomorrow if the community doesn't sign the overall contract.  There have been several meetings with all relevant parties (Gestaqua, town hall, administrator etc.), but at the moment there is no breakthrough. The main issue is that we don't want to pay for the water consumption of phase II and the technical solutions suggested are not feasible. 

Tomorrow we have another emergency meeting of the committee and I will let you know what the outcome is. For now ignore the letter in your mailbox.

Max

Hi All

I had a plumber called in a few days ago, as I now have a problem with my water heater, which keeps whistling day and night, wether it is switched on or not. I dont know if its the water pressure that has caused this. The plumber said the pressure is dangerously high, aboutr 6 bar, and he said it was only a matter of time before all of the apartments start flooding. He suggested for the time being to turn off the third tap that is high up on the wall in the bathroom then open up a tap to release the pressure, as Davmunster said. He said this should work as a temporary measure, but regulators should be fitted NOW, not in 6 months time when half of our apartments get flooded. His exact words were, " its a disgrace that you have been left with this problem." How can we go about fixing these problems now. Is it down to the community to fit the regulators or the water company. I believe each apartment will need regulators fitted, is this true. What happens if an insurance claim is made on a flooded apartment. Who will be responsible for the payout, the insurance company ?, the water company ? or the community ? If it was our responsibility in the first place to have these regulators fitted, this could end up costing tens of thousands in claims. I believe a regulator costs about 200 euros, correct me if I am wrong. As for the water bill, I spoke to someone the other day in another block. They had gone down to the office of Gestaqua ? to pay the bill and like Max said, they could not pay it. They were told its 230 euros. What is this charge for. Is it a connection fee?, is it the annual fee ? I spoke to a friend of mine that lives here and he says their water charges is quarterly and a meter is fitted so you are charged for the water that you use. As for paying the bill, they had to bring passports, title deeds, bank account details etc. If its true that the administrator is going to help those not living at Don Juan with setting up accounts, how will this be possible, if they dont have any of the official documents as I.D.    I dont hold out much hope considering it has taken some people 3 months just to get an email reply from them. Is it true that if we dont setup an account within a month of the go ahead, that we get cut off.

Westport

Hi Westport

Just saw your post on EOS - I was wondering what tune your water heater was whistling.............? 

Seriously though what did your plumber have to do to solve the issue or was he able to do anything?

Is 6 bar really "dangerously high" I wonder or have they different standards in Spain?  See this info from Wikipedia:

Water pressure

Water pressures vary in different locations of a distribution system. Water mains below the street may operate at higher pressures, with a pressure reducer located at each point where the water enters a building or a house. In poorly managed systems, water pressure can be so low as to result only in a trickle of water or so high that it leads to damage to plumbing fixtures and waste of water. Pressure in an urban water system is typically maintained either by a pressurized water tank serving an urban area, by pumping the water up into a tower and relying on gravity to maintain a constant pressure in the system or solely by pumps at the water treatment plant and repeater pumping stations.

Typical UK pressures are 4-5 bar for an urban supply. However, some people can get over 8bars. A single iron main pipe may cross a deep valley, it will have the same nominal pressure, however each consumer will get a bit more or less because of the hydrostatic pressure (about 1 bar /10m height). So people at the bottom of a 100-foot hill will get about 3 bars more than those at the top.

The effective pressure also varies because of the supply resistance even for the same static pressure. An urban consumer may have 5 metres of 1/2" lead pipe running from the iron main, so the kitchen tap flow will be fairly unrestricted, so high flow. A rural consumer may have a kilometre of rusted and limed 3/4" iron pipe so their kitchen tap flow will be small.

For this reason the UK domestic water system has traditionally (prior to 1989) employed a "cistern feed" system, where the incoming supply is connected to the kitchen sink and also a header/storage tank in the attic. Water can dribble into this tank through a 1/2" lead pipe, plus ball valve, and then supply the house on 22 or 28 mm pipes. Gravity water has a small pressure (say 1/4 bar in the bathroom) but needs wide pipes allow higher flows. This is fine for baths and toilets but is frequently inadequate for showers. People install shower booster pumps to increase the pressure. For this reason urban houses are increasingly using mains pressure boilers (combies) which take a long time to fill a bath but suit the high back pressure of a shower.

Some further info I found on the net about water heaters:

By far the most frequent problem encountered is with the security valve.  This is found on the cold water supply connection to electric water heaters and hot water storage tanks in heating installations. 

The problem is that the valve is constantly running to drain. 

The valve itself serves a triple function, a shut off valve, a drain valve and a pressure relief valve and it is the pressure relief function that is at the root of the problem of constant discharge. The valve is preset to discharge at a pressure of 7 bar. This is a safety device to protect the equipment in the hot water system and should never be blocked or tampered with. Therefore if the valve is discharging it is most likely that the system is above the maximum operating pressure of 7 bar. As the water heats it will expand and system pressure will increase if there is no open outlet to release this pressure.

In most cases the proper pressure regulation of the incoming mains water supply will solve the problem; alternatively the installation of an expansion vase will absorb some of the pressure increase and prevent discharge from the valve.

This message was last edited by gericom99 on 8/29/2008.

This message was last edited by gericom99 on 8/29/2008.

This message was last edited by gericom99 on 8/29/2008.

This message was last edited by gericom99 on 8/29/2008.

This message was last edited by gericom99 on 8/29/2008.

Hi is the 230 euros the cost of the connection fee or do we pay for a water meter ?bye irene

We decided not to sign the contract with Gestagua as it would mean that we have to pay for phase II. We have no way to meter the actual consumption by the other phase as the actual network differs completely from the drawings. We hold the town hall partially responsible for this anomaly as they approved the plans but never checked the proper execution of the works.

There is a chance that Gestagua will really cut the water but we are prepared for it. We will go the emergency court and expect to be reconnected in a few days. Meanwhile we will try to arrange for a interim solution with a water container on site.

If we sign now under pressure we will forever be paying for phase II water and we are not prepared to do that (and the AGM prohibited us to sign such a deal).

BTW: the water pressure maybe high, but it's not uncommon in hilly areas. Pressure regulation per block will possibly be a solution but it could well be that every apartment needs a regulator. Our development has a height difference of a least 35 meters so a pressure difference of 3.5 is to be expected on site. In the end it is up to individuals to protect their apartments, but meanwhile the community is searching for solutions. We still hope to mediate this problem, but do realize that the high pressure today compensates for the former ridiculously low pressure in block 1 top floors.

Your recent post about water supply and Gestagua is very disquieting Max, not least because there is no indication of a possible solution.  Please explain what water the community has to pay for as opposed to individual owners - I presume the water supply for the pools and gardens will be the main component and if there is no way to differentiate between the volume of water used by Phase I and Phase II for these facilities then the only solution may have to be a sharing of the bill - 2/3 for Phase I and 1/3 for Phase 2.  It would be helpful to indicate if possible what sort of a potential bill we are talking about here.  Obviously owners will have individual meters so there should be no problem on an individual basis.

The prospect of being without water even for a few days is not at all pleasant , and I expect the water company will be losing patience with their unpaid bill.  Why do you think that the "emergency court" will order a reconnection and that the interruption in supply if it happens will be short-lived?  A water container on site will surely not be able to provide sufficient quantities not to mention the difficulties of transport and usage.

More information and clarification of this whole matter is needed especially on the strategy that is being adopted by the committee and how this can lead to a resolution of the problem.

hi Gericom

I too would think this deal as reasonable. But what happens if Phase2 is not paying the 1/3? Will phase1 be cut off too?

If the network is differing from the drawings  it must be time for the Townhall to spend some of the 80000e that developer paid in deposit to get the license for phase 1. I would prefer to get a contract that involves no one except phase 1, then any future questions/matters can be resolved within our own community.



Grethe

 Hi All

I am not sure that I agree with Max's statement that it is up to each individual to protect their apartments from the potential dangers of high water pressure. I believe that it is the communities responsibility to “arrange/organise” a consistent and "safe" supply of all utilities to Don Juan
We need to get the water pressure issue sorted urgently, I am prepared to spend a couple of hundred euros protecting my property, but what about my neighbour directly above me? Each block has an incoming main water valve, we could attach a pressure reducing valve to this but this could effect people on higher 2nd floor/penthouse levels etc.. As Max says the best solution would be to connect a pressure reducing valve in the "water supply room" to each and every apartment, this way water pressure can be adjusted to a safe and practical level for each apartment. Given the circumstances this should be voted on by the committee and if it is agreed the monies should be taken from either the community fund (assuming we have enough cash) or directly from individuals bank accounts

Does everyone agree to this suggested course of action? If so we need to move quickly.

Regards
Andy

This message was last edited by otterandy on 8/30/2008.

 

Hi All,

Jut to comment on the Wikipedia extract, for at least the last 25years the UK has now moved away from using iron and lead and generally uses high density plastic pipes for incoming water supply. Also the UK (for many years) has used 15mm and 22mm copper piping with soldered joints with a move now to high performance plastic fittings, these systems will easily cope with high pressure, although I personally believe that copper is better.

From what I could see at DJ they use poor quality plastic pipes with a form of crimped joints, taking the high water pressure into account I am surprised that they have lasted this long! If you go into shared photos( 2005 I think) you will see some pics of the Spanish hot and cold water plumbing system.

On the water heater subject, it is possible to turn down the heat on your system. I changed mine when I was over in July, reason being that the water temperature was dangerously high. Just remove the bottom plastic cover of the heater and change the setting with a small screw driver. Mine was set at 100% and I reduced it to 75%, the water is still very hot but not at scalding temperature. The other benefit is that the water heater turns itself off when it reaches temperature, prior to this my heater was always on demand (red light always on) So turning it down should save quite a lot of money on electric.

Regards, Andy