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10 Sep 2007 12:00 AM by dora Star rating. 9 posts Send private message

Hello! I;m about to move at Madrid with my boyfriend(he laready lives there) but i have a huge problem. I have a pet cat-entirelly vaccinated, castrated etc. The thing is that the contract in the apartment we live forbids cats-not dogs, but cats!!-. I would like to know if cats are permitted into flats by the governement laws, because state laws are stronger than tha statuses of any apartment buildings. I will be extremely gratefyll seeing an answer from someone who knows! Thanxxx!!



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10 Sep 2007 9:38 PM by mariadecastro Star rating in Algeciras (Cadiz). 9402 posts Send private message

mariadecastro´s avatar
The allowance of pets into a rented house is just a matter of  the owners´decission. If he wants to close the potential renters to just those not having pets animals, he can do it.  It would be illegal if, once you are there, he would  try to limit your rental rights by forbidding the cat there.

_______________________

Maria L. de Castro, JD, MA

Lawyer

Director www.costaluzlawyers.es

El blog de Maria



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10 Sep 2007 9:43 PM by dora Star rating. 9 posts Send private message

Thank you for your quick reply. But the problem is that the owner of the appartment is ok with the cat. It is the operator, the "administrator" of the apartment building that has a problem with the cat. I don't know what to do. The fact that we signed a contract that was forbitting cats in the apartment-even though we didn't know what we were signing-can create a problem? What can they do to us if I take the cat with me anyhow?

Thank you so much once again!





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10 Sep 2007 10:59 PM by mariadecastro Star rating in Algeciras (Cadiz). 9402 posts Send private message

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So the prohibittion is in statutes of the Community of Owners or internal rules of the building?. Was it submitted to votation by the owners? When? If it was and it was done according to the quorum rules contained in the Horizontal  Property Act,  the cat prohibition is according to Law.




This message was last edited by mariadecastro on 9/10/2007.

_______________________

Maria L. de Castro, JD, MA

Lawyer

Director www.costaluzlawyers.es

El blog de Maria



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11 Sep 2007 5:58 AM by dora Star rating. 9 posts Send private message

the prohibition is in statuses of the internal rules of the building. There was no thing as owners' voting or anything. Can we ask for something like that in order to allow our cat in?The administrator of the building just declared that cats are prohibitted and that we signed the contract agreeing with that. What i cannot understand is why while the cats are ptohibited in tha appartment, dogs are allowed. I believe there is not a rational explanation for this...



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11 Sep 2007 2:52 PM by Karensun Star rating in Orihuela Costa. 1474 posts Send private message

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If the Law is the 'law of the building' then it is reasonable to assume that it has been voted in at the Community's AGM and therefore would be law to that building.

The administraters to the Community must have the minutes of previous AGM's and as an owner you have the right to see these. That would answer your question.

If the Community has the law that you cannot have a cat, then that's the way it is and if you do bring one, you could find yourself in court. Also, if you are wanting to live in Spain in peace, it is not a good idea to ignore the Community rules.

This may sound harsh, but fact is fact and Community law is Community law.




This message was last edited by Karensun on 9/11/2007.

_______________________
  ' Do unto others as you would be done by'
   
         Now a non-smoker !  



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11 Sep 2007 4:33 PM by dora Star rating. 9 posts Send private message

So, if I have understood right:

1) there is no government law in Spain which allows or prohibts pets in appartments

2 )this is depended on tha mood of the owner or the rules created by the VGA's of the apartment bulding.

3) If the rules of the community say "no" to cats, then thatis the case, you can do nothing but to change appartment.

Am  i right?

Thank you all for your answers. You have been a great help to me. Thanks!





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11 Sep 2007 4:49 PM by Karensun Star rating in Orihuela Costa. 1474 posts Send private message

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Hi Dore, I cannot say if there's a government law about pets in Spain.

But I do know that the Community's law can decide whether or not to allow pets ( any pets ) and if the Community has decided...no cats........then that's that.

Individually, of course, an owner can decide that he / she does not want pets in their own apartment.......BUT an owner CANNOT decide to have pets in their own apartment if the Community has decided not to have pets ( assuming that the decision was made and accepted at an AGM.



_______________________
  ' Do unto others as you would be done by'
   
         Now a non-smoker !  



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11 Sep 2007 4:54 PM by dora Star rating. 9 posts Send private message

Ok with the community laws, but what about the governement ones? Is there anyones to know if there is a government law about pets in Spain? I pay much attention to it because if the government law allows pets in appartments(up to a limited number, let's say), there is not much that the community law can do since government laws are above community or local laws.

Where I live, there are also many communities that forbid pets. But our government law says that you can have up to two pets in one appartment. So,nobody can tell you anything if you live in an appartment that-suppositevely-pets are forbitten, since you are covered by the law of the government.





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11 Sep 2007 6:50 PM by Roberto Star rating in Torremolinos. 4552 posts Send private message

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Dora, you mentioned, I think, that this community rule is written in the statutes (estatutos)? Chapter One, Section 5 of the Horizontal Property Law states:

The master deed may also contain rules and regulations concerning the exercise of rights and other provisions not prohibited by law regarding the use of the building, its units, its installations and facilities, expenses, administration and management, insurance, maintenance and repair, thus constituting a private statute that shall not bind third parties unless it has been registered in the Registro de la Propiedad [Land Registry].

So, assuming that the statutes are registered at the Land Registry, as they should be, if the rule is contained within the  statutes that follow, it is the law. Communities in Spain are governed by the Horizontal Law, and that is government law, so it's all the same.

Having said that, I assume your cat is a house cat, and if there's no way that he/she can get out, or wander onto a neighbour's terrace, and assuming he/she won't start barking loudly or howling at the moon, I don't suppose anyone needs to know he/she is there? Cats rule! But you didn't hear it from me.........



_______________________

 

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please"

Mark Twain

 

 

 




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11 Sep 2007 6:56 PM by dora Star rating. 9 posts Send private message

Well, the prohibition of cats in the apartment is written and signes(by us) at the contract of renting the house. Is that the statuses you mean? Or what you mean is the general rules of the apartment building?

In any case,i 've thought of "illegally importing" the cat in the apartment. He's a domestic cat that will create no problems to the peacefullness or health of the neighbours....But the thing is that it's a first floor apartment and he will be visible from one window of the house, since it "looks" at the side of the road. but, believe me, if i can't find any legal solution about it, i will go illegal....I can't thnk it otherwise..





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11 Sep 2007 7:24 PM by Roberto Star rating in Torremolinos. 4552 posts Send private message

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Dora, I'm sorry, but I think you have completely contradicted yourself in this thread. Maria answered your original post by saying that the owner of the rented apartment is perfectly entitled to ban cats from staying in his apartment. You replied, saying the owner is OK with the cat, but the building rules forbid it. Maria, Karen and myself have tried to clarify the situation with regards to community law in Spain, but now you say the prohibition is in the contract you signed with the landlord. In which case, Maria's first answer is all you need. If your landlord says "no", it means "no"!

_______________________

 

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please"

Mark Twain

 

 

 




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11 Sep 2007 7:39 PM by dora Star rating. 9 posts Send private message

Well, I believe there is a misunderstanding with the terms since what I cannot fully understand what you mean by "community law".

I will put it simply and straight, so as not to be misunderstood. The tenants of the building have signed a contract whish says that "tha only pet that is allowed in this building is dog and not cats"(which seems really undemocratic to me, but anyway...).I may put it wrrongly before, i'm sorry.

The owner of the house has no problem with my bringing the cat in. The administrator of the building has a problem and does not allow it. If it was a dog, that would be ok with him.

So, with these facts given and with your answers, the conclusion i made is that, since the rule of the building does not allow my cat in, i cannot legally take my cat with me. Right?

So, i want to thank you very very much for your answers. The only solution that i can find is search for another house. Thank you once again!





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11 Sep 2007 10:27 PM by Roberto Star rating in Torremolinos. 4552 posts Send private message

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I think your conclusions are probably correct.

My apologies if we haven't been able to answer your question more clearly. You haven't told us where you are living now, but I'm assuming this will be your first time living in Spain? Although I doubt if there's much difference between Spain and wherever you are (it's not so much different in the UK for example), when there are several "homes" sharing communal facilities, for example in an apartment building, there will be a "community of owners", or comunidad de propietarios, which sets out various rules governing the running of the necessary "communal" aspects - such as the lifts, cleaning communal areas, security and so on. It is this which we refer to when we say community law :

Anyway, best of luck to you and your cat!

Note.- This system of ownership is also known as condominium ownership in the US and most of Canada, commonhold system in England and Wales and tenement law in Scotland. Other names are used in other countries, such as strata titles (British Columbia, Singapore, Northern Australia, Southern Australia), strata schemes (New South Wales), unit titles (Western Australia), sectional titles (South Africa), divided co-ownership (Québec), and flying freeholds (Jersey). However, horizontal property is a synonym also used in a number of countries, along with their own specific designations.

_______________________

 

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please"

Mark Twain

 

 

 




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11 Sep 2007 11:01 PM by dora Star rating. 9 posts Send private message

I live in Greece and as I mentioned before, here, you have the right to have up to two animals in your flat, independently of what the rules of the building say.Many tenants here do not want animals to live near them(weirdos) but they can do nothing to you, since you have inly two animals and they are healthy, vaccinated etc. That's why  i find your rules a little difficult to understand. Your help, however, was precious to me! Thanks for your wishes. I hope we will be fine. The best to you,too!





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12 Sep 2007 12:19 AM by mariadecastro Star rating in Algeciras (Cadiz). 9402 posts Send private message

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Dora:

1.- Ask for the Statutes  and  Internal Rules ( two different documents) and check how and when the decission was taken.

2.- Check if it was taken in a General Meeting of Owners with a quorum of  more than 50% of owners who represent more than 50% of the shares in the community.

If you find this, your cat needs to stay into the apartment and never be using the commun area. That is the only area the community can stablish rules on. Not into your private property.

ANything on the contrary is illegal and you can challenge the rule or the practice before Courts.



_______________________

Maria L. de Castro, JD, MA

Lawyer

Director www.costaluzlawyers.es

El blog de Maria



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12 Sep 2007 7:06 PM by Roberto Star rating in Torremolinos. 4552 posts Send private message

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Ah, Maria, you have just shed new light on this topic. What you have said here therefore, is that even if the community vote unanimously to forbid keeping pets in the building, individual property owners can still keep pets, just as long as they stay inside the apartment and never stray into communal areas such as the corridors? This is interesting, because it would seem that I and others have been barking up the wrong tree in that case! (Pardon the pun). Presumably, however, the community can still insist that any such pets do not disturb other community members in any way? Could the community, for example, not ban keeping birds, even inside apartments, due to the potential noise?

Dora, apologies if I have given wrong information. Maria is a qualified legal expert here in Spain, so I think hers is probably the best advice. Looks like moggie will be OK after all - just don't let him/her go wandering around the building!

P.S. I agree, anybody who doesn't want animals near them is a weirdo!



_______________________

 

"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please"

Mark Twain

 

 

 




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12 Sep 2007 7:16 PM by dora Star rating. 9 posts Send private message

It looks like a happy end, then! Cool!! I wanna thank all of you and especially Mrs MAria De Castro (am i writing it correctly?)for her answers!

P.S. 1: Of course people who don't like and don't want animals are weirdos .

P.S.2: Birds do not make "noise", they make "music". It's not our problem if they have bad sense of taste!!!





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