NAME AND SHAME

Not for the first time I wonder if it would be a good idea to have a forum or thread dedicated to naming and shaming companies that treat customers as victims to be fleeced. If they can in the UK why not here?

The absence of such a thread makes us consumers deaf and blind accomplices. I know there are arguments either way but on balance the argument in favour wins. Crap businesses would be better behaved if they knew the communities’ grapevine was torpedoing their advertising budgets.

What got me going: OLE Communications (internet services) of La Zenia, Costa Blanca. Granted the service is good and cheap - until they mess up and then watch out.

Due to an administrative error on their part they debited three payments instead of two. Recovering the situation led to a threat of service suspension, one suspension, four trips to our Torrevieja bank, and three trips to their office in Orihuela Costa. Remember, this is their cock-up not ours.

OLE demanded special bank receipts from our bank; a bank statement proving the illicit debit was not enough. They agreed that we had paid, that it was their failure but the onus was on us to do the running around to sort it. When they wanted a special kind of bank receipt we rebelled. They simply pulled the service.

If OLE is working for you, enjoy but the good times have been spoiled by this experience compounded by their ‘my way or highway’ arrogant office attitude. If you are a rival company to OLE then please feel free to publish this.

Here you go Mike a Name and Shame Facebook page for Spain! https://www.facebook.com/groups/237763313069596/

It can be tricky, legally though. I've had months of nonsense from a massive global company, who owed me approximately £200 and they've just agreed an out of court settlement (via the Small Claims) for more than double that amount! But I'm not allowed to say who they are. Suffice to say in the UK it's worth issuing the papers as they are likely to settle before the court case if they are clearly in the wrong; otherwise they have to pay for lawyers to travel to your local court to defend the claim.

Oooohhh Someone didn't like that did they? Whats not to like about being able to expose cheats, scammers and vagabonds? Unless you are one of them of course!

Ooooooh, someone's trying to turn the thread, aren't they?

I'm favouring getting my money back on this occasion; it would be a very hollow victory for me if I named and shamed them and then they wouldn't give me the money. I'm looking forward to my celebratory drink and meal courtesy of a massive international corporation. And I have pointed out how easy it is to combat these people by using the Small Claims system. How bizarre to suggest that I am therefore on the side of cheats and might even be one.

I'll leave the naming and shaming to the people who don't get justice and there are plenty of them, including me in relation to other matters. I'm an absolute expert on being cheated. I even wrote a one-off post on fear of being cheated - 'sugraphobia.' Look it up.

Hi Michael

If companies or individuals deserve and need naming and shaming for the benefit of others, I applaud those who have the credibility and integrity to do it. Not everyone is cut out for naming and shaming. You have to forgo any desire of reward prior to naming and shaming (not many can do that as many humans are selfish, greedy beings and they're so easily bought with gifts or cash) and one has to be tenacious and resillient to see it through.

Most people would prefer to see the people who need naming and shaming, named and shamed to the world, so others are aware of their shortcomings/failings and are not affected by them too. 

I've never understood those who keep quiet...and accept a gag...and a gift. I'd rather have nothing...but know I did the right thing and named and shamed and prevented the same happening to others.

I guess it comes down to there being givers and takers in this world. The givers would name and shame for no reward. The takers would keep quiet and take the cash or gifts. That's life!

PS. Don't worry about libel laws...many do not understand them. As long as what you print is 100% true, you are safe and protected from any libel claims. Anyone concerned can have a read of this :

http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/content/six-things-all-journalists-need-know-about-defamation-act-2013-which-now-force

This message was last edited by ElviriaDreamer on 02/05/2014.

Yes, your previous comments on this site have always shown you to be that kind of ethereal, perfect person we all aspire to.

I assume Eggs that your claim was settled in UK via the fast track system which is quite affordable but many other European countries are very much different and a claim through the courts can be very expensive, lenghty and unpredictable. Besides, the outlay of travelling to UK if necessary would be far higher than some claims would be worth.

Kindly accept my sincere apology if my comment offended you, I had no idea who disliked the information I posted and I considered it rather odd that anyone would dislike information that would possibly assist them and others. Please be assured that it was not aimed at anyone in a malicious manner.

Apology accepted Woodbug.

Yes, it is such a shame that no similar system exists in Spain. I would suggest that the introduction of such a system would have a massive and positive impact on people's lives in Spain, giving people the chance of getting justice against cheats - whether they be individuals or companies. It's a pity someone in power isn't taking this on. Maybe someone who knows how to go about it can start one of those on-line petitions, in Spanish, to be presented to the Spanish Government? That would be fantastic. I know someone here could do that quite easily and Eye On Spain would get credit for having had a massive impact on Spanish people and expats' lives in Spain. Come on. You know who you are - I can't remember who does this sort of thing. And we can all be the first people to sign it. I'm feeling quite excited about it.

When you get ripped off, you can do one of four things.

Name and shame them in some way or other (with the appropriate risk of getting sued as I did...)

Turn the other cheek

Sue them with an expensive lawyer and in a very slow way

Take the physical route.

None of these seem to help much, since justice and circumstance is on the side of the villain. Best not to get stung if possible. By the way? 'Karma' isn't the answer!

Is this one big cover up that should be aired in public so that no-one falls victim to buying in an area that shouldn't have been built in?

The Daily Mail published an article on 10th may 2014 which can be Google searched but has a long header so here's one that came out earlier:

www.theleader.info/259/article/177740/atomic-bombs-stop-british-company-building-in-almera/ 

Worth a serious read too is: https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/09MADRID432_a.html

https://elpais.com/elpais/2010/12/10/actualidad/1291972646_850215.html

Topic discussed on British Expats Forums Spain but mysteriously pulled off the SPI forum which is now in lock-down, wonder why?????? You'd think a Spanish Property website designed to help people avoid mistakes would act responsibly and seriously!!

Name and Shame Desert Springs is the company in the articles!

The Palomares nuclear contamination issue in Almeria is not a new story. It was originally suppressed by Franco in 1966 with the active collaboration of the USA. They were cold war warrior partner’s acting in their own best interests.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/forgotten-the-most-radioactive-town-in-europe-2198466.html

What is new and has only recently been made public is the USA, the regional government of Almeria and the mayor of Palomares have been aware since 2006 of the previously underestimated extent of the serious contamination of plutonium in the area. The US has also been giving Spain considerable sums of money each year to monitor public health in the region.

As a result of the Snowden revelations Wikileaks has published some US diplomatic cables exposing the truth. The major of Palomares enjoyed a junket in Washington and the Americans made it clear he was 'on side' in the PR battle. The PR and publicity is of vital importance to the Americas and the regional government. Although the disasterous demolition policy by Almeria regional government cannot ever be described as good PR.

https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/09MADRID432_a.html

https://search.wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/06MADRID2853_a.html

The new argument now seems to be who is going to pay for the much needed further clean up. The US is fed up of paying all the bills. $3 million and counting. The US still pays the region $300k per year that is supposed to be used for monitoring local public health.

The last thing this region needs economically is more adverse publicity and those with a vested commercial interest are trying to prevent the truth from being widely circulated. However public health is at stake here as well as the investments of individuals, mainly Brits who have bought property in the locality, blissfully unaware of the risks involved. They are never told for obvious reasons. That's nothing short of a scandal.

Yet the building and selling of properties is allowed to continue. Despite Desert Springs being refused a building licence in 2009! 

http://www.theleader.info/259/article/17740/atomic-bombs-stop-british-company-building-in-almera/

There have also been a number of owners who have been refused a residential licence because property has been illegally built near the plutonium contaminated zones. 

http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2025

Web sites such as Spanish Property Insight have previously had a public web face of actively seeking to assist potential purchasers and exposing illegal activity. Their forum had many market savvy users exposing scams and illegal activity. However in reality the site has recently now become soley an advertising vehicle for companies such as Desert Springs and others marketing Spanish property.

A recent thread on SPI forum exposing the latest news about Palomares was recently taken down by the owner. I wonder why?

There is a carcinogenic substance called americium known to be slow releasing into the atmosphere in the Palomares area due to this site not being cleaned up, yet fractional share properties are being sold on Desert Springs resort close to this site.

It's highly likely that those purchasers had no knowledge of this when they bought, so the legal implications from potential contracting of cancers could be immense. 

This is a cover-up and it needs Spain and the US to get their act together to clean up the area and give an all clear to property owners there before it's too late. Two US planes crashed in 1966 depositing 4 nuclear bombs there is a deadly serious matter that those involved and those selling properties are turning their collective blind eyes to!!!!!

https://search.wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/09MADRID432_a.html

Quote:

In addition, growth in the Palomares area over the last decade has led to pressure from the local government and developers who would like to construct housing on the site, which is near the coast. (Spain,s current housing slump and construction collapse may reduce this pressure in the short term, but CIEMAT remains very interested in a final cleanup.)

This is the answer provided by the Almanzora Group who runs Desert Springs:

NOTES ON “THE PALOMARES BOMBS” 31 01 2011

On January 17, 1966, an SAC B-52 had a mid-air collision with a KC-135 tanker, while refuelling over Palomares, Spain. The B-52 was carrying four thermonuclear B28 bombs. The bomber had begun the mission at Seymour Johnson AFB, North Carolina. The KC-135 had come from the Moron Air Base, Spain. All four KC-135 crew members were killed, while four of the seven B-52 crew parachuted to safety.

The four bombs fell in a line roughly west to east. None of them had been armed with the codes necessary for their explosion and none fell onto inhabited areas. In reverse order:

1. One fell under its parachute into the sea and was eventually recovered undamaged, with no contamination resulting.

2. One fell under its parachute into the dry bed of the Almanzora river and was recovered undamaged, with no contamination resulting.

3. One fell north of Palomares village, just beyond the old dairy on the edge of the village.  Only its detonator went off on impact, resulting in cracking of the casing and causing a very limited amount radiation contamination in the immediate area of its impact.

4. One fell south of Palomares, in a small valley that is just to the south of the cemetery, towards (but not anywhere near) Vera Playa. Again only its detonator went off on impact, resulting in cracking of the casing and causing slightly more radiation contamination in the area of its impact than the other bomb.

There may have been no further spread whatsoever of radiation, but for the initial attempts to clean up by the first army American personnel on the spot, who proceeded to burn the effected vegetation. The smoke resulted in extending the contamination, in each case, in a plume in an easterly direction, downwind, from the two impact sites. Fortunately, the wind strengths were modest and the process was stopped by the arrival of experts from the American Sandia nuclear laboratory.

Subsequently, the most contaminated surface soil was collected into barrels and shipped to a nuclear waste dump in South Carolina in the United States. Low level contaminated soil and vegetation, principally tomato vines, were buried in trenches in the areas of impact. Since then these areas have been monitored by equipment located at the impact sites and in Palomares itself, where it is understood that there had been no reported incidence above recommended safe levels. Nevertheless, it was reported recently that snails in one of the areas of impact have been found with higher levels of contamination and this coupled with increased agricultural activity and development in the region as a whole, although neither on nor adjacent to the impact sites themselves, has resulted in the government finally taking the first steps to re-investigate and eliminate the last remaining vestiges of the incident in the impact areas.  

Until recently, the contaminated areas were not even fenced off and remained in private hands; albeit out of use. The contaminated parcels, amounting in total to around 50 hectares, have now been compulsorily purchased and/or occupied and are fenced off. Contamination in these areas has been re-measured, with the object of identifying and clearing all contamination above normal ambient levels. There have been some surprises including hot spots speckled around within these areas. Nevertheless, it is these results that are now to be addressed and their sites to be cleaned up. It was proposed, albeit now some time ago, that the compulsorily purchased land be returned to the Town Hall for public use.  The Town Hall presently intends to create small exhibitions, explaining the events, on the impact sites. 

As far as Desert Springs is concerned, the very nearest part of the resort is about 1.25 km away from the nearest impact site, across a line of hills, another valley and a plateau. Most important however is that it lies well north of the impact sites; in other words away from the direction of the wind at the time of burning of the contaminated vegetation.  It was never part of the original area of contamination, nor de-contamination, nor did this approach its boundaries.  Nevertheless, the Centre for Energy, Environmental and Technological Investigations (CIEMAT), a dependency of the Spanish Ministry of Education & Sciences, was contracted specifically to investigate and test samples from the intervening land, lying between the edge of the resort and the nearest impact site, before the resort land was purchased and developed.   The results showed that no radiation whatsoever, above normal ambient levels, was present

Likewise the beaches and coast of Palomares and Villaricos village itself, besides being well away from the points of impact of the damaged bombs, were outside of the line and spread of the subsequent wind born contamination.

Furthermore, in the words of CIEMAT concerning the area as a whole:-

“Plan of Environmental Investigation in Palomares”

“… Over the last 40 years, CIEMAT has carried out the continual surveillance of the population and environment of the whole of this area, in accordance with Project Indalo, by means of medical examinations and measured internal testing of the population and control of environmental samples of all kinds.   In this time, the values obtained have been situated within the range of normality and do not suppose any significant radiological risk for people.”  (Translation of the concluding paragraph of the Press Release, issued on the 1^st of February, 2007 by The Centre for Energy, Environmental and Technological Investigations, Spanish Ministry of Education & Sciences.)

In conclusion therefore, we would confirm that the residual sub-soil contamination is confined to areas, which are now well defined and controlled and are well away from Desert Springs and from other tourism areas, such as the coast of Palomares and Villaricos village itself.   Although the serious impact on the contaminated parcels themselves and their ownerships cannot be overestimated, the region as a whole and in general is not directly affected by this incident, nor its consequences.

ENDS

The Almanzora Group Ltd

The Manor

Boddington,

Cheltenham, GL51 0TJ, Glos,

United Kingdom

The reply from the Almazora Group does not mention.

1. In 2006 the US discovered the plutonium pollution was more serious and extensive than at first thought.

2. In 2009 Almazora Group were allegedly refused a building licence to extend Desert Springs because of the dangers of pollution, according to this report: Were reassurances given to allow building to proceed?

http://www.theleader.info/259/article/17740/atomic-bombs-stop-british-company-building-in-almera/

3. The USA and CIEMAT continue to prevaricate with inter departmental wrangling on the final cleanup of the land and the costs of so doing.

4. The need for a final 'clean up' of the plutonium pollution is acknowledged by the US in diplomatic cables.

5. If medical monitoring has taken place since the incident happened, have any medical statistics ever been released to the public on the cancer rates of the local population? Is there any evidence of cancer  or leukema clusters?

6. If these statistics have not been made public, why not?

This whole business has been handled poorly by both the USA and the regional government of Almeria. They were simply concerned not to upset their close bilateral relationship and military cooperation which is extensive.

Soothing words from a property developer with vested economic interests in the area does not in my view cut it.

I believe it's time the USA and the Spanish government got their act together and made an effort both to clean the existing plutonium pollution up. In doing so finally lay this story to bed and end the damage the US caused almost fifty years ago.  

The reply from Almanzora Group's office in Cheltenham UK many miles away from their Desert Springs resort so unaffected, does not cut it with me at all, especially when they say, Quote 'There may have been no further spread whatsoever of radiation' wow! So that statement alone also means 'there may have been further spread' 

The word 'may' is no guarantee, and therefore something like a cigarette packet health warning, or buying stocks and shares warning 'the value of your investment could fall' should come with each purchase, in case of fall-out down the line!

Who would pay up to recompense buyers if illness resulted, why did the Dail Mail publish an article recently?

I remember that the Americans built a desalination plant there on the coast, right at the entrance to Palomares. An engineer was tasked with being in charge as it was built to be presented on completion to the Spanish authorities. When the centre was completed, the engineer, Ric Davis, abandoned his post and opened a beach bar in Mojácar. He had a bottle of water on the top shelf next to the whisky. 'You know how much that dang bottle of wadder cost? Thirty million dallahs!', he would tell anyone who asked about the desalination plant. The day it was handed over, in a brief ceremony, the new gerente put a padlock on the door and moved to Barcelona, where the Americans continued to pay him maintenence fees for several years until they found out the site had been shut down. It was eventually bulldozed flat by the Council.

Great post lenox. Quite made my day. Of course the question arises why would the US provide a desalination plant and great cost?

Answers on a postcard please. Is Ric still in his beach bar?

Interesting CIEMAT report here. Draw your own conclusions.

http://www.oecd-nea.org/press/2011/NEWS-07-presentations/7%20Session%202-3%20Carlos%20Sancho.pdf