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Whether legal or not I figured I'd have to comply and that resistance was futile.
May I ask as a summary of the thread Is it simply a case then that as one with no employment I can show I need to have european health insurance and 5k in euros and I'm in?
Hi Eric
, I am a little surprised that you appear to be saying that you might have chosen not to comply with the rules. Although there are a lot of people who do that, I personally would not recommend it. After all, how do Brits feel when foreigners stay illegally in UK. And also, the system is constantly being tightened up (hence the new rules on Registration).
The new ruse are just that new. Thus it will be a while before we see how they will be applied.
As I showed, they do not cover all possibilities but there is scope for them to be varied to meet unusual circumstances.
From your post it would seem your move is not imminent, so I would suggest to check when the tine comes to see what you will need to do.
Of course you can visit Spain for up to 3 months with just your passport.
In the case I mentioned, the applicant had been offered long term work and thus needed to apply for Registration immediately. (i.e. Intended to stay for longer than 3 months). Had he just been looking for work, he could have applied for an NIE and then, when offered a job, could have taken it up with the NIE and then applied to ‘join the system.’
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I haven't said that at all johnzx and don't appreciate you judging me.
I'm in the fortunate position of not having to work but am a little wary of the spanish gov who seem to be changing the eu rules and wouldn't entirely trust them not to want to tax my wealth in its entirety if i had to give them bank details from all my accounts as I know that asset stripping from foreigners is an easy out for indebted govs that still have to win the next election.
Thank you for your reply anyway if i do buy in Spain as hoped I will bear it in mind.
ATB
eric76
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Eric. This maybe bad news for you.
If one is tax resident in Spain, either by registering on EU Citizen’s Register or by being in Spain for a total of 183 days or more, then with the exception of a Government employee pension and rental income, all one’s worldwide assets are indeed taxed in Spain.
And sorry if I misinterpreted your comment “Whether legal or not I figured I'd have to comply and that resistance was futile.” Nothing personal meant.
This message was last edited by johnzx on 12/08/2012.
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If one is tax resident in Spain, either by registering on EU Citizen’s Register
I'm sorry, but I am again perplexed by your advice here.
A simple registration on that register categorically does not make one "tax resident" in Spain.
Tax residence is determined by an entirely different set of criteria, and has no relation whatever to it.
Further down in this thread, I also note that you strongly imply that British (or any other EU Citizen) can be in Spain "illegally", and that someone who is not registered is indeed "illegal". Not so.
The right of residence is a fundamental treaty right, not conferred by the host state, and the mere fact of not having registered does not make one an "illegal" alien. All that it does (in theory) is make someone liable to a small fine. It absolutely does not make the fact of their residence unlawful. Not in any sense.
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May I ask as a summary of the thread Is it simply a case then that as one with no employment I can show I need to have european health insurance and 5k in euros and I'm in?
I have to stress (yet again) that the fact of the register, or any requirement to sign it does not affect your treaty rights. If you abide by the treaty rights you are "in" regardless of registration (or not). The income/health care requirement is only for "economically innactive" persons, in any event. If you are so much as seeking work, you are exempt.
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If one is tax resident in Spain, either by registering on EU Citizen’s Register
I'm sorry, but I am again perplexed by your advice here.
A simple registration on that register categorically does not make one "tax resident" in Spain.
Reply
The Hacienda say that it does and, as I explained, a friend had her non-resident bank account frozen following obtaining the registration
She was in Spain for 4 months
She subsequently cancelled the registyration and her account was un-frozen.
( I just wish you worked in the Spanish Gov, 66d35 )
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The Hacienda say that it does and, as I explained, a friend had her non-resident bank account frozen following obtaining the registration
I do not doubt that they said this.
They are, however, mistaken.
I think I know where their thought processes originate... it is because there are two primary ways in which you can become tax resident. 1. If you remain for 183 days. 2. If you move to a country intending a permanent stay, you become technically tax resident from day one, and under the old (now defunct) 'Residencia' system, obtaining a 'Residencia' had just that effect. As we all know, however, that is lo longer the case, and under the new rules (which they clearly fail to understand) the EU Citizens register has no such effect.... they seem to be treating it as identical to a 'Residencia' when it is no such thing.
Yet another case of lack of knowledge and poor staff training.
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The problem is, that is the way they operate so people need to know how it works so that they can comply or know how to avoid the situation. Or maybe you would be kind enough to tell Hacienda that they are wrong, and maybe the police too with EU Registration and renewals etc., and save a lot of people the problems which you believe should not exist, and also save your time in having to repeat so often what you believe..
Thanks 66
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That's not my job. It is their job to know and understand EU law when dealing with EU citizens.
Alternatively, they could take the sensible, logical option, and drop this 'registration' rubbish altogether...that is doubtless asking to much, however.
If they fail to apply the rules correctly, people do have 'external' avenues to pursue complaints, and they should do so.
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"johnzx
13 Sep 2012 13:01
The problem is, that is the way they operate so people need to know how it works so that they can comply or know how to avoid the situation. Or maybe you would be kind enough to tell Hacienda that they are wrong, and maybe the police too with EU Registration and renewals etc., and save a lot of people the problems which you believe should not exist, and also save your time in having to repeat so often what you believe.."
Yes I do it all the time . Take the highlighted copies with you & when there's a problem dish them out & ask &fill in the complaints forms at the same time. Then always put the complaint in to the EU . Saves you having to do the legwork. I still do the ' sweetness & light' mostly but it doesn't take much rudeness / obstinacy / lack of knowledge/ etc; for me to give them a lesson.
_______________________
Todos somos Lorca.
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We need complaints filing. One result of this will hopefully be a full EU compliance study/investigation into the various 'practices' here that breach the free movement of persons directives.
Here's a practical guide in Spanish that can be useful to have at hand:
FREE MOVEMENT OF PERSONS (in Spanish)
This is the full text of Directive 38/2004 in English AND Spanish (useful for highlighting!)
There was a previous compliance study, published in 2008 (and now out of date in various respects), however it does contain this telling statement which as we all know, is still causing problems:
Regarding the means of proof to certify the length of residence, it would seem that the only document accepted is the registration certificate or residence card. This would be against the Directive (Article 21) and arguably against Spanish administrative law. On the basis of the Spanish legislation, any means of proof may be submitted, providing that it proves the situation as described. In addition, the administration tends to request the NIE as proof that the person resides in Spain. This may indirectly violate Article 25 of the Directive. Article 25 in fact has been incorrectly and incompletely transposed by Spain. The legislation only specifies that for family members the possession of the receipt of submission of an application cannot be made a precondition for the exercise of rights or the completion of administrative formalities. As such, the administrative practice may be considered not in compliance with the Directive.
Here is the full document.
There are quite a few interesting observations in it.
Worth having in your files if you have to deal with such issues.
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We have been to police station today took private medical docs proof of income from uk also bank statements proof of children at private school in Spain my wife refused residencia because her private medical insurance does not cover irritable bowel syndrome. We were told that any exclusion of any medical condition meant you cannot have residencia. Don't know why we bothered to try we are uk citizens been living here 5years never once asking Spanish state for anything
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If you have been here for 5 years, you are entitled to full, immediate, permanant resident status. No exeptions. No conditions.
Take the case straight to SOLVIT.
Spain CANNOT "refuse" you residency. Period. End of.
Once again, Spanish officials seem intent on abusing the system and making up rules as they go along. They are not allowed to do this.
I would:
1) File a formal complaint with SOLVIT.
2) Make a formal complaint at the office involved.
3) Get your Euro MP involved in addition.
You are right. They're wrong. Don't give up.
Absolutely disgraceful.
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PS:
Only a flood of complaints direct to the EU will resolve this kind of grotesque incompetance and abuse.
If anyone has not been here for 5 years and is met with this idiotic kind of thing, one simple (cheap) solution is essentially to tell them to stick their registration certificate somewhere very dark and painful, and pay the couple of hundred euros fine they can dish out (if they actually bring a case). They cannot expel you. They cannot bar you. All they can do is a one-off petty fine.
After 5 years, regardless of the fine, you automatically have permanent resident status anyway - without any conditions. Remaining after being refused a certificate in no way makes your residence as such "unlawful". This is a treaty right. Nothing any petty official in Spain says changes that.
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