Spain - Time to reform

I couldn"t agree more Ads that the old saying "buyer beware" should always be kept in mind, regardless of where or what you are buying.

It is impossible not to know that there is corruption in most countries, at various levels.  No one can possibly say there isn"t.  As I said in another post, I would be a famous and probably wealthy woman if I had the solution to the problem.  What would you have me do?  Maybe storm the O.K. Corral of skewed bureaucracy, six-guns blazing à la Wyatt Earp to bring to heel those pesky bandits.

If I had a solution I would, believe me, let you know.

Patricia

What would I have you do?

I would have you rallying support for those subjected to this abuse, from those who are living in Spain and turning a blind eye to the realities, Patricia.

Don't expect much do I ?

p.s. Thanks Faro

None of us are blind to the realities of life, Ads.  But I would venture that most of us who are working all day, or engaged in a caring role, or dealing in general with life"s ups and downs do not have time to sit down for days on end in a public square. 

Again, I made a suggestion in an earlier post.  How about consulting the other nationalities who have bought in Spain, to see if any of them have a movement on foot similar to yours.  Perhaps united petitions by all Europeans might get more attention from the EU officials.  Or, is it only U.K. nationals who got themselves entangled?

Patricia

Patricia

No it is not only the UK nationals who got themselves entangled.  Why do you suggest that?

There are other nationalities represented in the Bank Guarantees Petition and also in Ruth's Stop The Spanish Property Road Show petition.

Bank Guarantee Abuse, Ley de Costas, demolitions, illegal builds, Land Grab etc is not reserved just for the UK nationals.  Ask Sr. José Blanco..........I understand the Ley de Costas is of particular interest to him!

Kind regards

Keith

I would support Patricia.

None of us can possibly be blind to the realities because we have them rammed down our throat every time we look at EOS, regardless of the original nature of the thread

As Patricia points out (albeit more subtly than I)...there are those of us who have a life and don't have the time or the inclination to sit down with the students.

For my money,  Keith  (I think it was you apologies if not) has the right approach...forget all the sixties-style  demonstrations against "the man",  and go and take the fight direct to the powers-that-be as happened recently at theLondon roadshows. That approach I can respect and support.

However, the constant whinging and new age nonsesnse about the youth movement  changing the world is getting seriously tedious.

You take it out of context....... no mention is made of the youth movement changing the world, so please don't exaggerate.

The point is they recognise the corruption IN SPAIN and lack of accountability by the Banks et al, and its effect on their lives, and are trying to do something about it.

Yes, Hammersfan it was me at the Spanish Embassy London on 4 May!

As you say, we are taking the fight regarding Bank Guarantees for Off-Plan deposits directly to the Spanish Government and the Banco de España.

Kind regards

Keith

I am not suggesting anything, Keith.  I ASKED if only U.K. nationals got entangled.  See my question mark after that sentence below.

Are there massive numbers of other nationalities who were affected by these problems.  And if so, do they have their own campaigns ongoing?  If so, can they be brought in to the mix in order to up the numbers petitioning?

Patricia

Patricia

I am not sure if there are 'massive' numbers of other nationalities who were/are affected by these problems.  However, the numbers of UK/Irish nationals will always be greater than other nationalities because according to Spanish Government statistics UK buyers make up over 35% of the 'foreign' purchasers in Spain.

I have been asked to make the Bank Guarantees Petition website available in Spanish as well as English as their are other Spanish speaking nationals who wish to join.  This I am currently working on and it will be available soon.  However, all the petitions, protests etc are being organised on a purely voluntary basis and it is a huge amount of work and very time consuming.

Kind regards

Keith

These young Spaniards have got their heads screwed on, having recognised the weakness of what today is peddled as democracy. It is nothing of the sort if democracy is to reflect public consensus.

 - http://www.presseurop.eu/en/content/article/696031-short-lesson-weaknesses-democracy

Meaningless twaddle - again.  The only way that democracy can work in practice is through the ballot box.  The bloke in the article complains that the big parties dominate.  Let's put that another way.  The major parties get a lot more votes than the minor parties.  Not rocket science.  The point that you miss Mike is that the vast majority of voters prefer the big parties.  There is a consensus at the election if you count 80 -90% of the voting public as a consensus.  Your problem is that you hold a minority view and you haven't convinced enough people of the wisdom of your position.  You are anti-democracy because you don't want what the vast majority want as expressed democratically though the ballot box. 

And Keith, good luck with the petitions but don't delude yourselves that it will make any difference.  I was Private Secretary to a Government Minister in the Thatcher government.  She got a petition from Nerys Hughes of LiverBrids fame about testing on animals for cosmetic products.  Photo opportunity for Minister looking all sympathetic and Nerys looking all concerned.  Ten minutes later, petition to the basement archives and nothing ever happened because of it.  It's a vehicle for publicity and nothing more.  Oh and fill in the names yourselves cos no-one's ever going to check them.

I'm actually sympathetic to ads despite his/her headless chicken routine.  The problem is that she's chasing the wrong target.  The youth thing is just maoning and partying about the economic crisis.  They might as well be protesting about the weather for all the impact that they can have on a world recession and the economic answers to it.  Better to join forces with Keith who seems much more focussed on one issue of corruption and accountability.  Civil disobedience, where it's peaceful, is a potenmtially potent weaqpon but the objective has to be to get public opinion on your side and create pressure on politicians that way. 

And organise a candidate to stand in the next Murcia elections on a platform of corruption in the housing market.  You'll get publicity and if you get enough support you might even get something moving.  Trouble is that a lot of the victims are expats and most are not on the censo electoral.  Oh dear.  Apathy is such a pain!!

AS always you make good points, Jek, and put forcibly

You are quite right about voting and the electorate.  People will vote, through inertia usually, for one of the two big parties in a country.  The vast majority vote that way because they do not want the trouble, often, of thinking something through, and secondly it just seems easier.  That is unfortnately the way of the world.

I am not saying that Ads' or Keith's efforts are not to be admired.  They are.  But a little lateral thinking can also help.  That is why I asked about bringing in other nationalities who have had problems when purchasing property in Spain.  

And I agree about getting a candidate moving to stand for the local elections.  It is a good idea! 

Patricia

I don't lower myself to discuss anything with disrespectful self-important self-styled anonymous ranters.

JEK   'Oh dear, this member hasn't provided any information yet.'  Does anyone take any notice of anonymous letter writers?

Found this.

"Britons piled into Spanish property and got burnt. The Germans bided their time. Now they’re starting to come back, should we follow?

We may fancy ourselves as a nation of hot shot property investors, but are we really any good at investing abroad? Not if our record in Spain is anything to go by. Many British investors crashed and burned in Spain over the last decade, using their favourite investment strategy of ‘follow the herd’.

German investors, on the other hand, largely avoided the bubble, and are now taking back their favourite haunts like Mallorca from distressed British vendors in full flight. Could it be that the Germans are just better at football AND buying overseas property than we are? And if so, shouldn’t smart investors be following German buyers back into Spain, rather than just watching our fellow Britons stampede for the exit?

The Germans always used to be big buyers in Spain, but from around 2003 onwards they retreated as the British advanced, with many selling out to British buyers after several years of surging Spanish property prices. Now it looks like they are back, at least in traditional German strongholds like Mallorca and Gran Canaria. “Ja! More Germans come back now,” confirms Margret Düllman, head of Düllman & Hundertmark, an estate agency catering to German buyers in Gran Canaria. It’s a similar story in Mallorca. “They bought low and sold high, and now they are back to buy low again,” explains Martie Quick, a director of estate agents Engel & Völkers in Mallorca.

To a certain extent the Germans have just been lucky with their timing. One reason they left Spain after 2003 was an economic recession at home that dented their confidence, and made surging Spanish property prices look crazy in comparison to their own declining house prices. But they also deserve some of the credit for their cautious attitude to buying property abroad.

For a start Germans don’t like borrowing money, unlike the British who will happily borrow more than 100% given half the chance. “They are always looking for a good investment but only something they can afford with cash,” explains Brigitte Wendel, a German estate agent with Engel & Völkers. “They want to be able to sleep at night.” Without mortgages they were priced out of the market during the boom, which turned out to be a blessing in disguise. Rising prices just encouraged the British to borrow ......."

Read the rest here, if you wish.

http://news.kyero.com/2010/01/29/learning-from-german-property-buyers-in-spain/

Campana; I can identify with much of that, especially the last two paragraphs.

Fair point, Rod. You are right and one has to have been in the industry and to read between the lines to spot that.

I seem to recall that the Irish authorities also wanted the Spanish authorities to "inform" on Irish second homers.  As far as I know the Spanish were not telling.  Why would they?  I cannot imagine they gave the German government a list of all Germans owning a second home in Spain.

German buyers have always been smart at finding good properties, not just in Spain.

However, aside from all that, I still feel it would be a good idea to bring in campaigners of other nationalities to swell the ranks and IMO give more clout to any approach to the EU authorities.

Patricia

Patricia

I agree Patricia.

Keith and Ruth have already discussed this in the past, but as Keith has identified there are only so many hours in the day, plus if they are small in number it is a lot of effort for little reward. We have made contact with all manner of MEP's in the past and none have reared their heads from other nationalities to lead us to believe that there was any organised support out there. I will try again to see if anyone knows of any useful European forums. Trouble is I'm not multi lingual, which doesn't help! We want Justin to support us if possible by sending out a specific message to all the community threads, which would be of significant help, no matter what the nationality. I really hope that this is possible.

Jek, your assumptions were wrong on this (again!) as I am and have been closely involved and significantly focused with Keith's petition for a considerable time, but this does not preclude me from supporting others in their aspirations for change, nor the need to focus on the failings of the system of justice. I have to suggest that your reference to the Thatcher era and example you quoted and the hypocrisy and self promotion on the part of politicians, makes it all the more relevant for the need to change the status quo and gain greater transparency and accountability...... the situation now with the onset of the internet cannot be compared to the years you refer to, since the sharing of information, the ability to organise and educate  (and be educated!) is to our advantage. I have respect for the intellect of youth and sometimes their lack of constrained thought can provide us all with some valuable new ideas. Your tendency is to generalise which I take issue with to be honest. There are intellectually able people in all age ranges and I find it arrogant to write off and be dismissive of the younger generation and their contribution to society. Worry not, this does not mean that I have taken my eye off the main issues however, as we women can multi-task in case you hadn't noticed.

p.s. Take a look a this.... it's quite a masterpiece in my eyes and a fine example of the ability of the youth of today.

ads

quite agree.   Can some on here be so stupid or selfish to try and deny that the whole reason workers rights, minimum wages, womens rights, child abuse laws etc have been achieved is through anything but protest and demonstration?.   If those in power are clearly not listening to reason then the options are few, and waiting for them to reform themselves is a waste of everyone's time.