Spain - Time to reform

I am one of life’s rebels, which used to irritate my ‘don’t make a fuss’ ex. I would remind her that many of the freedoms and privileges we take for granted today were hard fought for; not necessarily through the ballot box.

mike - so what are all these things that we enjoy that weren't gained through the ballot box?  I can't think of any since the suffragettes getting on for a century ago.  And that was people power in favour of a single issue.  Even the Jarrow marches in the 1930s achieved nothing.  Your post seeking to glamourise yourself as a "rebel" is just a mindless rant against the present form of electoral democracy.  You have nothing constructive to say - just another armchair critic.  What do you want? Elections every six months? referendums on everything?  Have you got any positive suggestions for improvements to our system of government?

Can we start off with trade unionism   ...  recall the abolition of slavery, child labour, education, better conditions down the mines, at sea. How long have you got? Might we move through various lands, both in the past and in the present, where suffrage is being won by those prepared to challenge violent democratically elected governments? 

Often when change is democratically voted in it happens because it was preceeded by public outrage and demonstration. Don't confuse yourself on that point.   You challenge me to suggest a better way of electing governments. I have, on these forums suggested a far better method of applying true democracy. You wish me to find and repeat it. Just how long have you got?

Try to be a little less confrontational and sanctimonious when replying to subscribers posts. Amazingly you are not the fount of all knowledge. Respect the opinions of others. Accept them as opinions. By trying to (ineffectually) score points you are coming across as a boor. Not a pleasant trait. Respect opinions; don't try to put others down.

You can't link trade unionism to the abolition of slavery which was brought about by the actions of the upper classes led by William Wilberforce, William Pitt and the Quakers.  Not a bit of street protest.   And suffrage isn't being won "by those prepared to challenge violent democratically elected governments".  If the government was democratically elected then in logic suffrage must have been in existence.  You can't have democracy without universal suffrage.

But you are also quoting causes that were focused on an objective.  The present thread started with support for the demonstrations in Madrid and elsewhere.  These were not in pursuit of a clear objective.  They were simply protesting about the effects of the economic depression.  That's harmless enough but not to be taken seriously. 

Thanks for the tips on how to become a nicer person.  I'm always trying to improve myself.  It's only fair that I offer you the same opportunity by suggesting that you would have a lot more credibility and be taken much more seriously if you ranted less and backed your arguments with evidence.

Yes please - I would be interested to read your thoughts on a better form of democracy.  Contrary to what you may think, I am interested in constructive views and reasoned argument and am open to persuasion on many issues.

Well, Mike, you mentioned that you are a "rebel", and we rebels tend to be a bit confrontational. 

I think Jek is entitled to his opinion, as I am, and as you are.

I also ask the question: what would you consider to be the alternative to democracy?  Politicians do not land themselves in Parliament (or the Dáil) unless the people elect them.  The problem is that the electorate have a tendency to elect the politicans most likely to give handouts, not the politicians who may be best for the country.

Patricia

" The present thread started with support for the demonstrations in Madrid and elsewhere.  These were not in pursuit of a clear objective.  They were simply protesting about the effects of the economic depression.  That's harmless enough but not to be taken seriously. "

Sorry Jek, you chose to ignore the following

"Since March, over 100.000 of us have taken action against corruption triggering a nation-wide torrent of media coverage and catapulting the issue to the top of the electoral agenda. "

Saw this.  Thought I'd put up the link.

http://www.workersliberty.org/story/2011/06/01/spain-real-democracy-needs-socialism

Thanks for the article Patricia.

On the subject of corruption I thought I would forward this, taken from an article on anti corruption. See what you think.

The Need for an Anti-Corruption Culture
The conventional wisdom in regard to pacts and agreements whether regional or international, including the United Nations Anti-Corruption Convention, is that the acid test is in the implementation rather than in the text. So is the case generally with legislation of any kind. The text of the United Nations convention is quite elaborate and cogent. Its full implementation should always be a vital target. The fact is that corruption remains rampant in the world at large. Perhaps corruption would have been more endemic and
more pernicious than it is now had it not been for the endeavors mounted in combating it at the national, regional, and international levels. Its full eradication, however, does not seem in sight here or anywhere in the world.

Experience has invariably demonstrated that an effective campaign to combat corruption presupposes the sway of a particular culture in society, namely one exalting transparency, integrity, and accountability. Rather, the dominant ambience is one of laxity, condonation, and tolerance vis-a-vis acts of corruption. The outcome is reflected in the absence of public accountability for undue acts or deeds. The public, via the press, through polls, or by any other means, does not censure or condemn misdeeds, infractions, or misbehavior characterized as corruption. Only too often an opulent individual is revered for his wealth regardless of how he had made it.

An anti-corruption culture would only develop and be enriched over time with vigilant and determined action in both the private and public domains. The dawn of an anti-corruption culture, however, is not likely to emerge as long as the structure of authority in a country is not amenable to effective accountability. Accountability in governments may generally be achieved only if and when the principle of separation of authorities is properly observed. More particularly, the executive authority is supposed to be completely apart from the legislative authority so that parliament may exercise an effective measure of accountability over the government. In the same vein, the judiciary -the justice apparatus generally -is supposed to enjoy complete autonomy from the executive branch of government. Any subordination of the judiciary to the executive authority, as in matters of appointment, reshuffling, assignment of tasks, or otherwise, risks costing the judiciary its prowess and effectiveness in meeting out accountability in society.

Democracy as a system of governance is universally identified with accountability and hence with anti-corruption mechanisms.

"Since March, over 100.000 of us have taken action against corruption triggering a nation-wide torrent of media coverage and catapulting the issue to the top of the electoral agenda."
Sorry ads.  Media coverage is nice but changes nothing.  And precisely what action have the 100,000 of you taken against corruption?  What is top of the electoral agenda is the same now as it's always been - personal living standards.  As Patricia says, people will vote for the party that puts the most money in their pockets.  For 20% of the workforce and 45% of youth there isn't any money and they will vote against the party in power.  It were ever thus.  Boom and bust.  Why do you think that governments change in the UK on a roughly 13 year cycle?  Governments get blamed for bad news.  You're wishing up a revolution but basically it's same old, same old.

I understand the frustration about corruption in Spanish politics.  I wish I knew what could be done about it.  I don't.  Neither apparently do the 100,000. Or do you have any specific proposals?

Well said, Ads; you elucidate the problem and provide the answer; legislate in favour of accountability. We wouldn't be in the mess we are in now if it wasn't for lax regulation of the international lending houses. Two sides of the same coin; corruption. Corruption is endemic. The snag is; eradication will require legislation. This comes through parliaments. As these institutions are notoriously corrupt we are unlikely to see turkeys voting for Christmas. I love your sentiments though. Hope springs eternal in the human breast.  Keep up the good work

I do indeed understand the frustration people might have with corruption, and let us make it clear here that it is not just so in Spanish politics, by any means.  It is a world-wide problem.  Let us look no further than my own native land, Ireland.  But, let's not go there!

I repeat that human nature being what it is people will vote for the party making the promises of handouts, regardless of whether these handouts ever materialise in real time, or whether the "freebies" will become economically counterproductive in the long term.  Humans do not like bad news, and are very capable of shooting the messenger, that is to say the "honest politician". 

There is that saying: "A country gets the government it deserves".   Maybe so; maybe not.   

I don't know how the problem of corruption and corrupt politicians can be addressed.  As Jek says, I wish I knew what could be done about it. 

Patricia

This link and the text contained therein is quoted from a publication by a Mr. Harry King

http://www.howto.co.uk/abroad/spanish-law/attitudes_to_tax_delay_officialdom_and_law/

Thanks again Patricia.

This article should be included in every purchasers starter pack!!

Archaic, corrupt, uncivilised, inefficient, selfish, compromising, hypocritcal, dishonest,etc ..... all negative aspects that lead to a stressful vulnerable experience, where human rights play no part. No wonder the youth want reform when they consider how different it could be. But what a waste and unnecessary suffering in the interim, let alone the wasted effort just to stay ahead of the game. Perhaps this is why the crooks feel so at home! (Sorry!)

And they (the Government) say "trust in us"......... no way Jose!! If ever there was a case to prove that the official rhetoric is not to be believed, then this is it!

Is this why you observed "I think it takes courage, honesty, intellect and an open mind just to get through each day." Patricia ?

'Cmon, get your thinking caps on and please embrace reform (via legislating in favour of accountability), for the sake of the next generation if not your own.

And in the interim, how about supporting all those who have been dragged into this net of corruption with false reassurances of protection within the Spanish law?

It looks as though the European Commission has been hoodwinked too as they expressed in their conclusions to Suzanne and Ruth's original petitions that consumers should rely upon a "competent" system of justice in Spain as a means to gain justice according to the laws of the land.  What a joke!

Now it's up to us to prove it's no laughing matter however.

BUYER BEWARE!!!!

Support AVAAZ's petition http://www.avaaz.org/en/spain_people_power/?vl

Ruth's petition http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/stop-the-spanish-property-roadshow-open-letter-to-davi.html

 and Keith's petition www.bankguaranteesinspain.com

Here's a productive idea that's come from Faro relating to the delays

The local colegios have demonstrated they cannot self regulate so what's required is a centralised and independent disciplinary committee with power to fine and revoke practising certificates and once a complaint is made it is investigated in a timely manner.

What's so productive about the idea, Ads?

Quote:

"...what's required is...."

Who is going to impose the requirement?

Patricia

Do you see no means of applying pressure to the Government and just continue on with the status quo that stinks Patricia!

It should be used within petition evidence to substantiate the need for reform.

What is your solution to unaccountability?

What is yours, Ads?!

It is all well and good talking and debating on what SHOULD be done ("should" is a marvellous word..)

No doubt a representation could be brought before the appropriate EU authority in such matters.  But I expect that as part of your petitions you have done this.  Has it made a difference?

Patricia

Ads works tremendously hard trying for reform and justice for all those let down by the systems in Spain and co-ordinating and pulling together all the various rants into logic.

I sometimes also feel Ads is wasting her time but if we all adopt that attitude then nothing will ever change and the next wave of purchasers will suffer as did those in the past.

I greatly admire Ads work and also the quality of her postings and replies.

If only one or two politicians take up the challenge then maybe there is a glimmer of hope and so worth the effort.

One can always live in hope, Faro. 

Ads is obviously making a very great effort.  No one could question that fact.

There are all manner of areas that require reform, not just in Spain, but in other countries too. 

Could I just mention that we are not the captains of the destiny of others.  This next wave of purchasers you mention (and I repeat that many have purchased satisfactorily and are purchasing right now ) will just need to watch their step, seek and take good advice, talk to others who have bought and are satisfied with their purchase.

Spain will continue to be a popular destination for property purchasers, not just from the U.K.  but from Europe in general.  A vast number of Germans and Scandinavians have purchased in Spain, as have French, Belgians and Dutch.  It would be interesting to know if persons of these nationalities have complaints and/or are petitioning for reform.  You know....strength in numbers.  Then again maybe not.....unreliable continentals and all that (half-kidding).

Patricia

And your solution for those caught up in the corrupt practices where the rule of law (57/68) is not being applied, where  innocent people are having their homes demolished, where innocent people are being subjected to retrospective laws caught as pawns between regional and local goverments, where whole swathes of properties are in limbo or impossible to sell due to their actions, etc?

I would suggest it's imperative to keep the message of BUYER BEWARE with all these facts at the forefront of the agenda so as to bring pressure to bear on the Government to respond to the charge that Law 57/68, there to protect,  is not being implemented, that the law is not protecting consumers in Spain, that their actions are, as Roger Helmer described in the EP as "bandits"! Well let's expose the bandits and keep people informed of the realities.

No-one should be turning a blind eye to these facts, and those with any moral fibre should be supporting those affected by all means possible.

Also the youth of Spain deserve better than this and I wish them well in all their endeavours to seek a better solution to their future lives.

Please let's start hearing about how you plan to affect some change given all of the above.