Hi Maria,

Please could you advise on the following:

In 2008, the European Commission launched the Justice Forum, a platform for consulting stakeholders on European Union (EU) justice policies, strengthening mutual trust among EU legal practitioners and promoting best practice in the justice systems of the Member States.

Do you and your legal professionals feedback to this forum with regard to influencing reform and establishing new justice policies, and do you see this as a way forward to ensure that a more consistent approach is applied across EU member states? In particular I am referring to the necessary reform as highlighted within Keith’s BG petition? Do you consider this a realistic means of improving the Spanish Justice System, given many observers now consider Spain will struggle to self correct within a reasonable timescale?

I know this is a difficult and somewhat controversial subject but as you identified this e-justice website (https://e-justice.europa.eu/home.do?action=home&lang=en)  within one of your blogs, I hope you don’t perceive this as arrogance, more that clients are all desperately striving for solutions to improve the Spanish Justice system within a reasonable timescale i.e. one that will not take decades to achieve. Perhaps this is the only realistic way forward? Or perhaps you and your legal collegues perceive this as outside interference and would be unwilling to use this as a vehicle for change?

Has it occurred to anyone that the majority of Spanish might like their justice system the way it is? 

In the UK we scream & shout everytime a new EU ruling makes a change to our legal system.  It might not be to everyone's taste, but it's ours and we like it that way (most of the time).  More the fool us then that we meekly accept the diktats of an unelected mafia headed by Booby Van Rumpy and go along with whatever they want.  At least Spain has the backbone to go their own way and if I were Spanish I would certainly object to a bunch of foreigners coming in and wanting to change something that the majority had been happy with for generations. 

I have to say that the legal system in Spain irritates the hell out of me, but I don't consider that I have the right to demand it be changed because it makes me feel uncomfortable.

zetog, I certainly know where you're coming from and it's how I feel about many things in the UK - just that we should be able to make our own decision.  However I like many other hundreds of people feel the Spanish legal system has let us down.  When a very large developer  hasn't produced a property and refuses to pay back money is taken to court and found guilty and nothing is done it just dosen't seem like justice whichever Country you may be in.

Hi Sparky.

I know what you mean, I just wanted to be the devil's advocate for a while.  This forum used to be a bit too edgy at times, but seems to have settled down into middle age too readily.  Where are all those members who made each morning such an entertaining read?  I just thought I would try to light some of that up again.

Like many whilst we were working we viewed spain as a haven from the heavy regulated and PC regime in the UK, but luckily we were able to dip our joint "toes in the water" and buy a place without threatening our way of life at home, so we are potentially somewhat at arms length from the situation of those poor souls who have no avenue to return when things go bad in Spain.

From a distance spain looks like a haven to Brits who long for a less regulated society and wall to wall sunshine, but common sense should forewarn us that we may have to give up some things too.  Unfortunately, one of those turns out to be rule of law.  It seems to suit the Spanish, so how can we impose change without changing the thig we went out to experience?  It's true that none of us realised quite how bad Spain's reaction to the downturn would be and the impact it would have on ex-pats.

We have decided that the trade off is too one sided and that our place in Spain will just be a bolt hole for a few months of the year, but yes, we have a great deal of sympathy for those who have been cheated, first by greedy developers and then by the Spanish legal system, but don't hold your breath until the EU does anything about it.

" It seems to suit the Spanish"....... maybe those Spanish souls who have been equally affected by the injustices might not agree with you Xetog! It would be good to hear from them (and Maria).

ads

I feel this is part of the problem. Despite many Spanish people being affected by the injustice, there seems to be an attitude of ''Tough luck, your problem, not ours'' even amongst their own people?, so the chance of support for outsiders who are often seen as greedy , wealthy or naive might well be pretty slim. If some type of working party of legal experts in Spain will not take a stand against the injustice using the huge amount of clear evidence they have to hand, (which of course would need to be funded) then who will speak up on behalf of everyone cheated, who would be listened to if those in power in Spain whose job it is see justice done, continue to turn a deaf ear?  The EU seem as good as useless also, so what does that leave?, perhaps what's already been done in the form of petitions and media articles?.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we should accept any of this, or give up, it's daylight robbery by any other name, and ultimately by those who's job it is to protect decent people against crooks, but  despite a few crooks being jailed  and some talk of change, it looks more and more like we are going to need intervention from some sort of body with a sense of integrity and justice if the people of Spain show little interest in standing up against those who continue to do so much damage.

"it looks more and more like we are going to need intervention from some sort of body with a sense of integrity and justice".  Now that hits the nail on the head!  Discounting a revolution, the only people with the power to change things seem to be the very folk who stand to loose if the law is corrected.  I do not say that there are not a few of the professional class in Spain who can see the injustice and would like to bring about change, but the vast majority of Spanish have no stomach for the fight as they learned how to deal with and avoid the problems years ago.  They don't seem to care a lot about the few of their countrymen (and women) who have been caught by the corrupt. 

There are already a lot of laws in Spain that could help, but the judiciary have no interest in applying them. As in the UK, judges seem out of touch with the aspirations and desires of those less well positioned, instead simply enjoy the power to entertain themselves acting in an arbitary and unpredictable manner.

If what you say is true about the judiciary then we have to strive with greater effect to provide hard evidence not in the form of individual petitions (with respect) but come together AS ONE, and identify an independent route for compensation. We need a more consistent and co-ordinated campaign of complaint to the justice department in order that we provide, where applicable, undeniable proof of administrative ineptitude, to demonstrate to the Spanish government and EU that justice is being impeded. We should be demanding that our legal representatives report the problems (in writing) to the justice department and provide us with copies of these complaints. Keith appeared well on the way to a structured approach within his petition against the Banks, and no doubt his evidence will be used to great effect, but in the interim we should be doing more to ensure that complaint procedures are followed through. 

However the question still remains, Is the problem the judiciary and/or the administrative system, or is it political interference of some kind to protect the Spanish developers/banks? Equally concerning is the fact that if the government are following some protectionist route, then who is to say that the same won't happen with the legal route for compensation against the Banks.....in other words, you win your case but the legal rulings are not followed through with recompense.

We have to get to the bottom of this before many will feel comfortable to follow ANY further legal routes.

We need answers, and quickly.....

This message was last edited by ads on 19/11/2010.

This message was last edited by ads on 19/11/2010.

I think you are right ads.  It is possible the Spanish government actually want these court delays.  If the cases go to court it is likely that many Spanish developers and Spanish banks will lose their cases and  have to pay out a great deal of money, much of it to foreigners.  If they win many of these it will make bad publicity and show to all that justice is not being done.  So perhaps the best solution for the government is to prevent these cases from going to court.

What they don't realise is that many of these foreigners may still want to buy in Spain and therefore put more money in the country.  We are prevented from doing this while we are still waiting to get our money back.

 Keith Rule´s petition? Did you all sign it?

Yes of course, it's essential to gain everyone's evidence and support.

Maria, please could you answer the question at the start of this thread.

Also could you advise on the following:

If developers are solvent with liquid assets at their disposal then are they obliged to respond to a provisional enforcement order by law? Are they deemed to be in breach of the law if they do not?

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yes, some sort of government protectionist route could well be a reality?. At every turn, the victim of injustice meets a brick wall with nothing but reminders of the laws that are almost always are as good as useless in reality. I fear though it's just another form of the corruption running right through the system from top to bottom. Until someone in a position of power decides (or is forced?) to open the massive can of worms, then the ongoing lies and deception  will no doubt carry on, with an occasional won case or lip service to doing the right thing, so that lawyers can justify advice to take action, despite very little chance of real justice in the form of returned monies in most cases.

 ads:

Here. some answers to your questions:

Yes, of course Keith can use the European Instances if he finds no response in Spain.

If developers are solvent, and they do not pay voluntarily, the period of forced enforcement of the judicial decission will be opened and the Judge will embargo assets accordingly.

Thank you Maria,

The problem appears to be however that due to the prolonged timescales involved with these legal processes (which many are now querying the reasons why these are being allowed to become so prolonged as to be abusive, i.e. they are significantly compromising the application of justice) there is growing concern that there will be no assets to embargo at the end of the day, or that the required financial outlay from all these extended legal routes for actual return of monies will ultimately prove prohibitive to many.

Legal timescales and impartiality within the justice system need to be addressed for there to be any true accountability. Unfortunately, until such time as these abuses are eradicated, the justice system in Spain will always be perceived as a legal lottery.

There is a solution called "provisional execution of first instance Court decission"  by which Court decissions passed by First instance courts can be enforced even if an appeal is proposed. This is a measure established in 2000 for the speed of justice.

Some Courts are extremely slow, in these cases, a proper claim against the Council of Judicial Power is advisable and if aplicable a claim for damages incurred due to the slow rythm of Courts.

For the reform of specific laws it is possible what is called a " iniciativa popular"  (" people´s initiative") which requires at least 500.000 signatures. Keith´s petition could be properly be the start of a formal one of those regarding law 57/68.

ads

Aifos is a good example. I've been told it might be 5 years or more before creditors get anything?, even though in my case the court delayed the hearing for two years after accepting my case and granting an embargo on Aifos assets. Even after perhaps 5 years the best I can expect is ? amount of my original investment paid in very small amounts over a period of months/years after that. No interest, no embargo and no payment for what will probably be 12 years or more of stress.  As I had an embargo in place and Aifos had thousands of properties as assets, how easy would it have been for the courts to say '' as we ruined your chance of justice or you realising the court embargo we granted you by our delays, we award you one of the thousands of properties Aifos have on their books''??

Considering the embargo was to protect against Aifos not being cash rich to pay me when I  won my claim in court for the original investment, plus interest and personal stress and loss, it makes a complete mockery of the Spanish justice system and those  who work within it including lawyers who haven't got together as a group yet to protest about the fact that as you say, the justice system is little more than a legal lottery. 

maria

with respect, claiming for ''damages incured due to the slow rythm of courts''  sounds like a bad joke!!.  How long would that take and what chance of  a positive result, knowing what we do about the justice system???.   The laws to protect those wronged continue to be meaningless if not carried out in a very strict time scale of weeks, not months/years, and the failure to do so, not punished instantly and harshly.

Goodstich:

In your particular case, a claim against the bank which received the deposits is the most advisable course of action.

and in regards of compensation claims against the Justice administration, this is not a judicial procedure but an administrative one, so court speed do  not affect this.

maria

yes, if I thought the justice system had enough integrity and common sense, then a claim against the bank would be worthy of consideration?.  At present  and on the evidence of many of those who have signed the petitions, I have very little confidence of a positive result, or in a reasonable time frame? 

Thanks for putting me right on the claim against the justice administration, but roughly how long would this take?, and what  in approx' percentage terms would be my chance of success?

Maria thank you for your replies and information relating to procedures to regain monies.

We were waiting 13 months between petitioning a provisional enforcement of the first instance decision and it being issued by the courts and during that time the developer asset stripped. From what I can gather this is becoming the norm, that developers "use" (I would say abuse) the system of delays to their advantage, conveniently remove/hide liquid assets and thereby compromise the client, requiring further costly legal action/ embargoes. Everyone knows what is happening but NO-ONE does anything about it. I repeat NO-ONE. So is it any wonder that there is scepticism at ever achieving return of monies under the existing legal system in Spain? Developers should be severely penalised for these abusive practices, but again everyone knows that at present nothing is being done to make them accountable within realistic timescales (if at all).

As for the Banks, well who can tell if they will ultimately be made accountable. Will they also play the appeal system, or will we be subjected to yet more delaying protectionist tactics? I sincerely hope not. 

As for claims against the justice adminstration I would be interested to know if the claim is only allowable  as a last resort measure?, i.e. when all other legal avenues have been proven to have been exhausted and the developer has gone into administration? Which once again would play into the hands of legal professionals, who ironically benefit from all the additional legal procedures that have to be explored up to the point of administration.

Where is the incentive therefore for legal professionals to campaign for time constraints to be introduced for their clients, when in effect they ultimately  indirectly benefit from this abuse? Also, another irony, doesn't the justice administration claim have time constraints in place such that after a few years you can no longer make a claim? Then, as more and more legal procedures are instigated we find ourselves with a justice administrative nightmare as the courts become overloaded with ever increasing outstanding cases......and so it goes on as the appeal procedure is compromised either by judicial delays or by protectionist interference. It really is a disgraceful way to effect justice and it's no wonder that it is having such a dire effect on the pschye of those who were originally genuinely intereted in investing in Spain.

To be honest we have had enough of the rhetoric and now we want action to protect our consumer rights, to achieve return of our monies as per legal judgements and to bring everyone's attention to the risks involved when investing in Spain. It's so sad that it has come to this, to have to consistently repeat the message of the risks involved and identify underhand practices of developers and Banks, to keep forewarning clients of the realities associated with legal action in Spain, and to feel so alienated against a system as to effect your view of the country and people who you originally aspired to live side by side with. It's all so unecessary and it could have been so easily avoided if action had been taken soon enough to address the abuse at source. We should not have to wait until the system grinds to a halt, or until 500,000 supporters have to stand by and witness so many innocent people deprived of their life savings.

Let's hope that Keith's petition takes hold in the interim and that there is enough moral conscience out there to demonstrate support for those who have been denied their rights to justice.

You are completely right ADS. That´s why I do hope meny people will sign Keith´s petition!

Maria