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norman

 I think what ads means is that the undeniable evidence from every person cheated needs to be gathered and presented to those responsible for making the guilty parties accountable for their failures and setting up compensation schemes to re-pay those ultimately cheated not only by the known crooks in the property industry, but the often hopeless justice system itself. Had the various laws and justice system not been flouted by corruption or incompetence then this could have been nipped in the bud years ago.

Clearly this is not a problem for ex-pats only, but everyone in Spain who could well fall foul of the dreadfull system of corruption and abuse at all levels in the property industry. Until huge pressure is put upon those responsable, then I fear the good work of those cheated will continue to be ignored and treated as a minority problem not worthy of serious consideration for change? 

Hello, I see that some people think the British press are making matters worse in Spain by reporting the situation with land.  Whilst this may be the case, I feel the press have a duty to report any wrong doing in any part of the world.  Especially when it is so close to home.  Many people here are still unaware of how corrupt the spanish system can be, therefore we deserve to know what is happening.  We were going to build in Spain ourselves about 4 yrs ago and are very please we decided against it.  It may have been ok it may not have.  But in any event if we had and we decided one day to return to the UK then we would most likely have been in trouble.  Instead we have the perfect solution.  We live in the UK in the summer and then rent a villa in Spain for the winter extremely cheaply, so we have the best of both worlds.  This will be our first year doing this and we are looking very forward to it.  Perfect solution for us.

Foxilady

good luck with that.  Sounds like a great idea, and gives you the freedom to walk away if and when you want.

Thanks Goodstich.

By the way Norman, Ads is a “her” not a “him”!!

Following on from Norman’s posting, those who now know the abuse that exists in Spain (not all of it predicatable I might add as more scams come to the fore), and are aware of the vulnerability that accompanies such lack of consumer protection, not to mention the uncivilised practices that cause such distrust to fester within a society, will sadly leave many (not all) far more wary of investing in Spain. So in that regard so long as these abuses are allowed to remain it’s like scoring an own goal! Technology is a wonderful tool to learn from, and I'm sure that there are many out there watching this space to see how Spain deals with these problems. It will take courage and determination to rid itself of this evil corruption and malpractice that does such harm to those caught up in the nightmare scenario. But what a waste, and so unnecessary in this day and age.

If anyone tells you that this is over exaggerated then understand that this cover up has been going on far too long (I agree Foxilady that everyone does deserve to know what's happening), and it's time that everyone who has experienced the effects of the ineptitude within the legal administration system firsthand, or suffered from the corruption and hidden agendas of many who prefer to turn a blind eye to the devastating financial consequences, stand up and be counted.

So please provide the evidence and support petitions such as Keith's (www.bankguaranteesinspain.com) and other worthwhile petitions.

This is a great opportunity to start making those responsible for the problems, more accountable, and also to play a part in effecting reform that will ultimately benefit all.

 Dear All,

Great idea - freedom to walk away - that which Goodstitch could not do at almost any cost.

It is very difficult when you have been wronged with lawyers involvement, after all they are supposed to be honest and respectable, above suspicion even.

Life savings by definition cannot be replaced without a second life - Goodstitch did not lose so much and is living and saving again, perhaps Ads is also?

I find myself in a different position with little time left to see recovery and the hoped for changes.

With the EU powerless to control itself and no discipline in place I can only see a growth in malpractice not a reduction in my lifetime.

Our new leader has just given himself a salary increase and a boost to EU funds - what message does that give to the miscreants.

I see no reason to be optimistic dear Ads, if I may be so bold.

Sorry about the gender error but when the profile is not there -  "Oh dear, this member hasn't provided any information yet." ????

But of course hope is not completely dead and I applaud all the effort - keep it up.

Regards

Norman

May I be so bold as to ask if you have signed and completed Keith' s petition with your own evidence Norman?

It's Keith who deserves the praise in formulating his petition. He has spent an inordinate amount of time and effort on this and has no hidden agenda other than he, like us all, is striving for accountability, reform, and more importantly return of monies.

 Also sincere thanks to Suzanne for her petition www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

This message was last edited by ads on 11/11/2010.

 Dear All,

Ads - of course and yes.

My position is unusual in that, like Goodstich, I could not accept what was offered as remotely like the brochure and offer, also appallingly low value for money, additionally it failed survey - crap build quality.

However very many did for fear ( implanted by their "own" lawyers ) of losing their 30% deposits.

They showed true British grit and tried to make the best of things and improve matters themselves.

Techno even tells us that some are happy with their lot though the development site suggests that my 425k penthouse can today be had fully furnished for 99k. Which of course is less than the deposit I paid into the lawyers client account.

I agree that Keith is something of a paragon in this matter, as you are yourself, I just wonder whether you are realistic in your hopes that hot air here will achieve anything. 

Regards

Norman

norman

I'm sure 'hot air' wont do anything, but the efforts of Keith, Suzanne, ads, Justin and a few others are far from that, and are I think our best chance of moving people in to a force to be reckoned with. If we could only get help from the legal experts in Spain to back our case with their expertise and evidence, and encourage the people of Spain to stand up and revolt against the injustice, then I feel positive action would move much faster?  How do we do that?, I don't know, but I feel we need a very loud voice before those who can make a difference will listen.

 Dear All,

I find it difficult to understand why, despite his experiences Goodstitch finds it so difficult to learn.

He has a rose-tinted view of the UK and it's level of corruption, which of course is much less than Spain's and other member states.

This thread has revealed that even the native population is abused and threatened with guns in the night when they try to protest.

He calls for a revolution from these frightened souls.

Surely he must understand that he is whispering in the wind.

He cannot possibly believe what he is saying, can he?

Regards

Norman

norman

 We clearly need as many people from all countries involved in Spanish property to stand ''together'' and get behind these petitions and the evidence within them by whatever means possible.  It's your choice to give it up as a lost cause, but many of us want to support moves to raise awareness. Have you a better idea?

We all have to provide the evidence and then let us see what transpires. Even Norman doesn't have a crystal ball on this one!

One thing is for sure this depends on EVERYONE affected standing firm and supporting those who are fighting for justice.

We certainly can't just stand by and watch the Priors and others in similar situations be abused in this way.

Support the petitions and spread the word.

www.bankguaranteesinspain.com

www.spanishpropertyscandalpetition.co.uk

** EDITED - Spam **

Advertising off the back of innocent victims- disgraceful and everyone should blacklist this person and their website.

 Dear All,

a plea for realism is regarded as "giving up" and of course at my age realism is a must.

there is no abandoning the cause the hope and support is eternal.

though the realism suggests that since my outlay was much greater any legal fees to pursue that will be much greater than Goodstitch's spend and therefore prohibitive.

I am afraid that this has taught me that the biggest criminals by far are the knowing lawyers who I trusted but who promoted the whole fraud. It will therefore be a long time before I trust another lawyer with my money.

I may have once left my brains on the plane but have since learnt that the country itself is basically corrupt, many of its lawyers equally so and its unfortunate citizens totally cowed. Hardly a place to invest in unless you are very brave.

Regards

Norman

Norman,

You trusted a lawyer???

Norman we have been saying this for some time now. Only when this message is relayed enmasse will those who still resent or deny such facts realise that it is in no-ones interest to ignore the problems that accompany such a corrupt society. They live under an illusion that it will not effect them, but unfortunately economic circumstances now allow them little room to hide from the harsh realities. If they want people to continue having faith in their country and invest (or reinvest), then they will have no option but to reform. We have to keep this message loud and strong and keep relaying the facts as they occur. We want no more cover-ups. As Foxilady has said, everyone deserves to know the facts......

In the interim it would be much more positive if we could bring the Spanish people who are also struggling with the realities on board and work together to seek a practical solution. Alienating them will do little to help the situation. To me one solution that appears to suit all relating to the Bank Guarantee injustices, is for the Banks to be made accountable ASAP (fast tracked), as this would relieve the courts of many outstanding cases which would free up the resources so that other legal injustices can be tackled. Time constraints on legal processes will have to be addressed if we are to make any headway, so this is a high priority that we should all be focusing on. There's little point in winning any case if the process of remuneration is stalled thereafter, which appears to be the norm right now. This is why I keep hammering home the message that good independant lawyers should be much more pro-active in their feedback to the relevant justice departments, to strive for resources to improve the justice system, to consistently highlight all cases of delays (evidence gathering), to identify practical solutions and to cut out the obvious abuse of the appeal system, that is crippling the administration of justice.It's in everyones' interest to crack this once and for all.   

This message was last edited by ads on 12/11/2010.

 Dear Ads,

wonderful unarguable sentiments, I can only applaud, but how unrealistic to expect Spanish lawyers to police themselves, a joke really.

as a simple engineer who has spent a life's career seeking job satisfaction rather than best salary, I know many who have sought the salary and the company car and to hell with the job.

they join "loss adjusters" and are paid many pieces of silver to give "expert" opinion by insurance companies to deny claims, they are like Harley Street professionals who do not practice but only work for insurance companies.

Worst of all are the lawyers who do not give a fig for justice, only their overpaid livelihoods. Overpaid whether "win or lose".

Things are bad enough in the UK, I can't imagine how bad it is in Spain.

Perhaps Max will tell us?

Regards

Norman

Hi Norman

Bad

Norman perhaps the only tool at our disposal in this age of technology is to expose those you describe (we're back to evidence again) and hope that in the process, as clients seek alternatives, that it will gradually dawn that it ultimately doesn't pay to be devoid of a moral conscience.

Just taken a look at the blog titled "Property bubble fears weigh on Spanish recovery" . Given the statistics quoted it's time that those in government recognise that the problems that we have all identified within the real estate sector and justice administration sector need urgent attention before knowlegeable purchasers will ever feel comfortable investing in Spain again. We have to keep expanding that knowlege base which will hopefully put pressure on the government to realistically address these ongoing problems (not by just rhetoric I hasten to add).

Dear All,

Ads is right of course, but again misses the point.

All a buyer needs is an honest lawyer, nothing more.

Society needs lawyers to be honest with draconian penalties for malpractice. Absolute penaties.

Again with other professionals, very severe penalties also.

Self policing is litle more than a sick joke.

EOS would have saved me I believe as long as the problems are in the forefront and kept so.

Spain has no more intention of conforming than it's lawyers do.

Sad but true.

There is very little hope, but keep whatever pressure you can on.

Regards

Norman