Home demolished in Vera

Justin

Is there anyway you can come up with a general letter we can all send to our local MP's regarding this.

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I know that on-line petitions have also worked previously....is this also worth a delve?

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And what about the Priors requesting their iva back on the purchase as well as all the taxes they have paid over the years - after all if its illegal then they should not have been charged for it.

Never heard of bank robbers paying tax and vat??

Perhaps if this is put to the town hall they may start to do something - money talks!

The notary who authorized the sale should be targetted as well.

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i agree with everthing said so far, we love spain but feel the junta have to get a grip on this situation. There are hundreds of people in total turmoil over this.

 does anyone know anything about the new secret list of illegal properties in marbella they want demolished. It seems our appartment is in the new town plan if approved. We now have the this new list but can not find which properties they are talking about.

BEST WISHES EVERYONE

JAMES

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They have put a stay on everything until the new pgou is finally agreed - that was the decision in court last week.

I have a list - its probably the same as you and there is very little supposedly to agree to demolish. Even if the town hall agrees to go forward with demolitions, the owners can appeal for years!

Other than that many developers have to compensate the town hall, and failly that the homewoners themselves, although again this will all be subject to years of legal wrangling.

Just buy something with full and clear licence - they do exist, allegedly!!

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I also feel that Estate agents who sell or have sold property which they know does not have the proper licences should be held to account.

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I'm sorry Candy (may I call you by your first name?) actually I am half Celtic myself my Mum was a Scot!  I have recently moved away after a two year stretch working in Bonny Scotland (Aberdeen) I now live in Dubai, to my dismay Scotland is even more infected by PC nonsense and silly leftist mind control than England! 

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It is extremely tragic what has happened in Vera and this type of situation demonstrates exactly why one needs to tread with care and extreme caution when buying here. So many people have absolutely no problems at all but every so often a story like this hits the headlines and makes us all thank our lucky stars. But it is still a buyer beware situation. Just to illustrate - aboiut 18 months ago I received a call from a potential client to enquire about developer/construction mortgages. She advised me that the house she was going to build (this was being promoted via a lawyer here in Spain by the way) would value at approximately 400.000€ at completion. The estimate for build cost was about 250.000€ including the cost of the land. She had already spoken to a Spanish bank that had advised her the maximum mortgage advance they would be willing to consider was 80.000€. This seemed a little strange to me as developer finance will normally advance up to 60% of completed value more or less (at the time anyway). When questioned further it transpired that the bank having considered all the plans etc would only advance 80k owing to the fact that the licences granted were to build an industrial unit - basically 4 concrete walls and a roof - not a private residence. The lawyer in conjunction with the developer was  suggesting that they build the house for the client and then when the "four year" rule has passed they then have the construction re registered as a dwelling house  the client pays the  "minor" fines incurred and everybody would be happy - all tickety boo!!! The client had believed this was all perfectly normal for Spain - and in times gone by perhaps it was - but the authorities have clamped down. I recommended that she did not touch it with a bargepole - she sent me some documents sent to her by the lawyer and the lawyer in the documents had explained the procedure in very simple terms - what they had also done was said that there was always a risk that the authorities would not recognise the construction as a dwelling house and it might never have a revised licence issued - no warnings of potential destruction. What completely amazed me was the fact the client had even considered the proposition in spite of the potential minor risk - thankfully she had needed a mortgage to pursue her dream - thankfully the bank said no - akthough without explaining why. What amazed me further still was that when I said she should not touch this scenario with a bargepole she seemed reluctant to believe me on the basis that the "prestigious and respected" lawyer had said it could be done and was considered normal practice - I seem to recall that while on the phone she was musing over whether she could release equity in the UK to put herself in the position of being a cash buyer - I do hope not!! If she had been a cash buyer in the first place presumably she would have proceeded.

This is certainly not the first instance of this type of situation and I fear that it will not be the last - hopefully with the likes of this site more people will become aware of what can happen and ensure they take the correct advice -

In answer to the previous thread about why the garage was left standing I believe that it could be exactly the same scenario as outlined above - thus permission granted for a utilitarian construction but not a dwelling house. Someone somewhere will have known what was going on - if they had had a bank valuation from a reputable company done then it would not have happened as the bank report would have highlighted the fact that what was being built did not comply with licensing procedures - at least it should have done.

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Nice idea about the agents Tinto but most of them have probably gone out of business. Essentially it is probably the lawyers that have not done the correct diligence - I DO NOT INCLUDE MARIA IN THAT REMARK AS I KNOW THAT SHE ENSURES CORRECT CARE AND ATTENTION FOR ALL HER CLIENTS - however there are lawyers (and some big names too) that have not implemented the correct checks and have recommended clients do things that in my opinion may not have been in the clients best interest.

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I don't want to repeat what has been said before but with over 22,000 members (albiet not all active) a massive petitiion would be hard for the Junta to ignore but we should involve our Spanish neighbours who are just as much at risk as the rest of us.

I'd be happy to contribute to a fund specifically to help the Priors - I am less keen on a "fighting fund" until I know more about exactly what it is needed and going to be used for. 

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Always always use a registered independant solicitor when you buy property in Spain never leave anything to chance

 

Buying Unregistered Property

The legalization of a construction is different to it simply just being described in the title deeds. In the absence of planning permission, quite common in particular areas, where laws state that a dwelling cannot be legal after being built after a certain date on less than 10,000 m2 of land! Properties are constructed in accordance with the local planning regulations and can then be registered in the land registry by virtue of the granting of a deed before the notary, that is based on a certificate granted by an architect which reflects the number of floors, total area of the plot and M2 of the construction plus any other usable element with which to recognize the building. At the same time the architect must make a reference to the age of the construction as if it is more than four years old.

The right of the local Town Hall or corresponding authority to take action due to any breach of planning regulations would have been already prescribed, if after 4 years no action has been taken the property can then be registered as a "legal" construction.

If in doubt don't buy anything you are not completely satisfied is legal. Let your solicitor earn his money and do all the possible checks on the property to make sure you are as sure as you can be. There are stories about people losing their homes and some ARE true! As we have just seen again!!

Royal Decree 1093/1997.

Extensions and permissions

 

There has been a change in the law recently and it seems that up until now the administrative regulations on extensions to property in particular their legality meant that if there had been any illegal building works i.e. any type of additions to properties without the proper license from the town hall (for example if you obtained a minor or small works license but were actually extending your property and really needed a major works license) then after 4 years from the works being completed if the town hall had not raised any complaint or fine then they would be out of time for doing so. In addition, and this is the major difference, the land registry would then be obliged to register the extended building.

 

It now seems that this is not the case. Whilst the town hall can still be time barred from raising a fine the land registry can now refuse to properly register the extended property so you will be left with a title deed (escritura) that does not accurately reflect the true size of the property. Which in reality may mean that anyone wishing to buy the property after these works have been carried out would have to accept the property as it stood i.e. without the true dimensions being registered, this may be acceptable to the buyer or not and unless of course the new buyer needed a mortgage and then the property may not reach the true valuation for the asking price of the property as the bank will only value the registered dimensions i.e. those on the deeds and not what actually stands.

 

The answer would seem to be to ensure that you apply for the correct license in the first place if you are doing anything other than very minor works and to do so you need to have an architect prepare a project that accurately reflects what work is to be carried out. That project has to be submitted for approval by the college of architects and then to the town hall for the license. Only then, once the license has been granted should any works start. Once the works are finished you will need certificates from both the architect (a fin de obras) and the town hall confirming that the works have been carried out and completed properly and in accordance with the project and license. Without these documents the land registry will not register your extended property.

  

I know some of this may sound obvious but it is easy to mistakenly accept the word of the builder and architect that there will be "no problem" and assume they are dealing with matters properly and rely on verbal assurances. Unfortunately quoting such verbal assurances cuts little ice with the land registry.

 

Our advice now is to make sure you take firm control of the situation and insist on confirmation in writing of any important assurances, check the plans carefully before they are submitted to the college and town hall to make sure they match what you intend to build.

 

You could hold back a reasonable amount of any architects fees until you have the approval from the college of architects and the license from the town hall and make sure it is the correct form of license. Only then give the go ahead to the builder to start work but make sure he has read the architect's project and will be building in accordance with it.

 

If you or your builder or architect have not followed the requisite steps correctly in the first place then it is unlikely you will be able to get the necessary documents once the works are completed. If for example the work carried out differs from that in the architects project and/or the license you obtained was for small or minor works when you have actually had big or major works carried out there will be problems. In this case you need to get your architect to prepare a modified project showing what has actually been done and then submit it to the town hall for "modification" and see what the town hall comes back with in terms of fines or required action. Once they have been dealt with, if that is possible, the architect and town hall should then be able to give you the final certificates. Unfortunately this approach creates a worrying period of uncertainty that is best avoided. 

 

It is also important to note that depending on the town you are applying in you may not in fact get permission in the first place especially if you are asking for permission to extend a property that is on less than 10,000m2 on rustic land as already there may be too much built on the land. For example on a plot of 10,000m2 only a land surface area of 2% may be built on, any more than this if it is not already stated in the deeds would be illegal.

 

In the case of plots under this size most properties already exceed this build size so you just would not get planning in any case.

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Excellent post - hopefully that spells it out for all!!

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This is truly an awful situation for all those people involved, some Spanish people too I understand, including Antonio Banderas so I hear!

We are in the process of buying a bungalow in a new urbanisation near Orihuela so watch all this stuff with great interest.

However, without defending the Spanish authorities at all  in this, don't forget that the English authorities also have the power to order a demolition in England if built illegally on green belt land.  I may be wrong, but I don't think any of those people are recompensed either.

I really am not defending the Spanish situation, but just don't forget that it can happen here too.

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Quite right Winemama - also extensions, conservatories, loft conversions etc - planning authorities in the UK can order that any home improvements are put back to the original condition in the UK if the correct procedures are not followed. I think the point is that most people know that situation in the UK but then they build or buy a house here in Spain but dont follow the same procedures they would in the Uk and take people at face value - the builder/developer smiles sweetly and says "dont worry we will deal with that" and it would appear that so many people want to believe them in pursuit of their dream.

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You are quite right Smiley - it's that life in the sun that blinds people!

I heard a comment once that has kept us straight ever since hearing it, and that was 'Why do people not take advice when buying abroad - you'd not dream of doing the same in the UK!  Some people leave their brains at the UK airport!'

This is not in any way disparaging the people who have fallen foul of the Spanish junta, because we ourselves went out to Spain with no intention of buying a place, but half way through the flight,  we changed our minds!  Hence the bungalow.

However, we did see a solicitor and have, I believe, asked all the right questions.  Only time will tell though!

 

 

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winemama said

'However, we did see a solicitor and have, I believe, asked all the right questions.  Only time will tell though!'

and that's often the problem!  ...........In the UK,  if we ask all the right questions, we can expect our lawyer to give us the right answers. Many people come unstuck in Spain because their trust in their lawyer is betrayed.

We think we have found a good lawyer in Spain now, and hopefully if the judge in our case makes a common sense decission (again, can't be as confident on that matter as we should be able to be) then we will get a long overdue but fair result.

I know it's not fair to tar all rea's/developers/lawyers with the same brush, (the uk agents we used in the first place are as much to blame as anyone!)but it has to be said, (and is now being proved time and time again), the chances of being screwed  one way or another while buying property  in Spain are far higher than in the UK.  I think now that fact is well  out in the open with all the bad press and the demolitions, land grab  etc, there  really is now, no excuse for not talking to the right people. Sadly though, much damage has been done and for faith to be restored, i feel much still needs to change to stop the rot.

When will the guilty and the innocent get the justice they deserve?

 

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Legally, Len and Helen Prior have a strong case.  Under the Human Right Act, which Spain has signed up to, the European Convention of Human Rights, Article 2 - Right to Life and Article 8 - Right to Respect for family and private life, provide they are afforded protection.  Clearly there has been a misunderstanding between two authorities.  At this stage, I would argue that it is academic who is in the wrong, the important factor is, a couple have been made homeless having adhered to the legal requirements of that authority, albeit, someone within that authority has acted incorrectly (some one elses problem!).

Whilst it may be a protracted case, I strongly suggest that they, and any othe couple in similar circumstances seek the advice of a solicitor who is competent in European Law.  Compensation will follow.

 

 

 

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Andy,

A short clip from the reply I received from one of my local MEP's which I posted on 23rd Jan:

"Unfortunately the fact is that the EU does not have the power to overrule the regional local authorities in a member state. So the parliament can not interfere in the administration of regional or district affairs.". 

Whilst the European Court is a slightly different body, they will not rule until all legal avenues in the country of the problems origin have been exhausted and then only at huge expense.  What this means in practice is that most of us will be long dead by the time this gets anywhere near an effective solution because it is in Spain's interest to stall and prevaracate for as long as they possibly can and then, as usual, they will just ignore any ruling handed down and carry on in their own sweet way.

This is a weakness (one of many) of the European project.  Most states are in the EU for what they get out of it and treat anything inconvenient with contempt whilst leaving the funding nations to pick up the bill.  States like the UK who do accept any rulings are treated with distain by the remainder and therin lies the rub. 

The EU has proven to be a mainly unelected and toothless watchdog, soaking up billions (in whatever currency you care to name) and sucking up to any state prepared to feign enthusiasm for its ideals.  Unfortunately the Spainish authorities appear to hold many of its own citizens in the same disregard as those from the rest of the EU and it is sad to see that many of them are getting hit in the same manner as are our fellow Brits whilst appearing just as powerless.  What is it worth being a European citizen where unbridled corruption has a free reign (I am not just talking about Spain here)? 

There may be ways out of this mess, but I think for all practical purposes you can count out any assitance from European authorities. 

Compensation may follow, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

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Hello Justin,

Good views but what is the possible action?

My thoughts, perhaps some good could be extracted from this tragedy.

Appalling, heartrending, disgusting treatment of anyone, especially OAPs. Is there no shame in Spain?

Surely the authorities produce planning maps with all areas designated - copies should be everywhere, all agents, lawyers and public offices. Where are they on the forum or at least a link to them?

"Get a good lawyer" is I am afraid a bit of a cop out, about as much use as "get a good agent", "get a good developer" etc.

Can you not meet with the Priors and get the full story including the names involved. Lets not be shy - tell it like it is.

Regards
Norman

This message was last edited by normansands on 1/31/2008.

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