The Bargain Property Experiment

I'll bet. Typical essex boy, just cant get enough of it!

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Never been known to resist a bit of smut - you know me too well!! Seem to recall having been there a few times already actually - recommend door number 3 on a Wednesday night - dont bother with the bar though the drinks are way too expensive. Regarding the economics of it numbers are my middle name and always been able to calculate the pros and cons (forgive any pun) of a business venture.

Actually I had an approach a couple of years back about doing something like this here on the CDS - allegedly the guy wanted to buy a 6 bed villa as a bed and breakfast - hmmmm thought I - not the first time I have heard that. When we knew one another a little better he expanded on his plans and I have to say the numbers stacked up extremely well - initially I was unable to fathom how he was going to make 2.000€ a night clear from a 6 bedroomed bed and breakfast - the bar profits were on top of that. Guess theres a lot to be said for the oldest profession in the world - good or bad!!!

Actually had an enquiry about 4 years ago from someone who was buying a villa in your neck of the woods Georgia and was going to set up a dungeon and offer themed "dungeon" weekends to that crowd in the UK - whatever turns you on? They had already done something similar in the UK and were into it themselves - dont know which one was the submissive - saw the accounts of the business and everything - extremely profitable business proposition and seemed there was a demand to have something similar in the sun and the warm as opposed to in the cold and the wet - then again I thought dungeons were supposed to be cold and wet - no matter how hot they get.

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  Hi are we still talking magic straws here????????     Nice villa Georgia I would not mind a room their,  more comfortable than the roundabout]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]      Pat

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In that case if things in this business get much worse, can you arrange a loan for Georgia and I to buy a cave - that should be wet enough to keep the punters happy.

Quite like the sound of stamping out the days stresses on someones back!!!

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Can just imagine Georgia as front of house!! Biker cap and piercings ........ hmmm with magic straws dangling from the piercings ....... conjures up quite a picture. Gillespie behind the bar (maybe not such a good idea) - Rixxy reading through the menu and demonstrating - that just leaves a role for me - now what can I think of that will suit my little fuschia number?

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I can see you as the Mama-san (with a nasty bite), counting the evening's takings, Smiley. BTW, old trick to save on linen changes - just turn the sheets over once in a while.

Now, back to thread perhaps?

I enjoyed reading DiJit's posts, and can see that they are intended as humorours rather than confrontational, so hope that my following comments won't be miscontrued either - just curious.

Quote: "After all a second hand car normally is sold at a discount to a new one." Is there a property market anywhere in the world where property depreciates like cars? I certainly think that greedy developers helped push the price of new build property to unrealistic figures, but otherwise, is this a fair comparison?

Quote: "Further if they convert the funds back to sterling the figure achievable may be surprisingly better than expected due to the strengthening euro."  What about the possibility that the seller is resident in Spain, or even Spanish!?

As for the criticism of agent's methods, for example not giving room dimensions etc., am I right in guessing that this would be your first time looking to buy in Spain?  (like I said, just curious). I'm not saying I disagree with your comments. Certainly, a greater degree of professionalism in the trade wouldn't go amiss (present company excepted of course), but trying to compare all the time with how things are done in the UK is surely a bit futile? This is Spain, as they say, and things are somewhat "different" here! As for blaming the agents for overpricing properties, you try and find a Spaniard who will drop their price - recession or no recession. Agents generally do not decide sale prices here, the seller does. The agent can either list it or refuse it, which in many cases perhaps they should do. But then, an estate agent window with no properties in the window isn't a great draw, and a website with thousands of daily hits definitely won't result in any enquiries if their are no properties listed - secret location or otherwise!

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Roberto I am not saying property in normal times (remember them) depreciates. What I am saying is the normal scale of things is that a new property commands the highest price. As the cost of labour, material and land escalate over time the price of 'second hand' properties grows along behind them.

I should have made myself clearer in that the euro benefit was available to UK residents repatriating their funds back into sterling.

Now marketing skills or lack of them.
The market for Spanish properties is more global than most. Therefore adopting the methods used in other markets makes sense. Correct accurate and factual information reflects on your professionalism. Once one does it the remainder will very quickly fall into line.
Bluntly the only reason for not doing it is laziness and incompetence imho.

I'm not a CDS virgin. I came out five years ago to buy and could not see any substance other than hype supporting the asking prices so I took my piggy bank home intact.
Then agents attitudes were appalling. Properties were only available to be viewed within a 10 or 15 minute time window at a time of the agents convenience. The standard question was 'are you buying one or two?' Claims which I considered to be ludicrous, of being available to rent circa 40 weeks/annum were repeatedly made. There was no definitive accounting to substantiate the asking prices. Credit cards were routinely used to take deposits.
The first morning I was there at breakfast, a snake oil salesman, sorry agent, arrived at the next table where a young couple were breakfasting with two young children.
'Well I assume you made a decision' he said condescendingly, 'whats it to be?'
'Yes we want to go ahead' said the young man looking at his wife whilst nodding his head vigorously at her. ' We don't want to miss out.'
'Good' said the agent, 'one or two?'
'Well we think you are right. The 2nd. flat's rental income will help pay for our use of the first' said the young about to be raped man.
'Good decision' said Mr Snake Oil, 'give me your credit cards and I'll get the deposit put through whilst you finish breakfast.'
I often wondered over the last five years what happened to that young couple. Don't get me wrong if people are that gullible, they get what they deserve but I hate to think what happened to their dreams of a better life for their kids.

If any agents out there are honest enough to recognise something of themselves in this perhaps you now can also recognise that you are reaping the harvest you have sown. If you still believe your ways work then I'll sit back and watch you join the list of very professional ex-agents in CDS. Btw I heard last week that another agency former powerhouse has the receivers in!

Finally it is my considered opinion that only by waking up and smelling the coffee will a strong sustainable market re-appear out the ashes of the current bonfire. CDS has a repeated boom to bust history of cycles. Maybe this bust is a good time to start to learn to develop as a mature, professional, trusted marketplace of the future.

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Again, I pretty much agree with what you are saying.

Whilst it may be true that new built property can command a slight premium (who wouldn't want brand new rather than used and abused?), I think the attraction of buying off plan was originally the idea of buy at today's price, but don't pay until 2 years later, when prices will have risen (hopefully). Seems to me (I could be wrong) that greedy developers started selling today at anticipated prices 2 years hence - and unfortunately a lot a naive people still bought, probably largely because the agents hosting them on their whirlwind inspection trips refused to show them any re-sales for comparison purposes. Maybe you are correct in saying that re-sale prices then followed the upward trend set by new builds.

The point about converting euros back to Sterling was perfectly clear. Perhaps I sounded a little pedantic, but I was just making the point that the Spanish property market is about a lot more than just sales to the English. (Actually, the Irish probably account for a very large part of it in recent years, so no currency gain there either!) Yes, the Spanish market is very "global", but without the benfit of any concrete figures to hand, I would hazard a guess that sales to Brits amount to a reletaively small percentage of the total, nationwide.

Similarly the British agents you refer to do not necessarily represent the big picture either. But, quote: "Correct accurate and factual information reflects on your professionalism. Once one does it the remainder will very quickly fall into line. Bluntly the only reason for not doing it is laziness and incompetence imho." Absolutely agree, but you could have been describing almost any Spanish profession or industry there! You could wait another 5 years, or until Hell freezes over, but don't expect too much to change on that front. Perhaps you'd be better off looking for a foreclosure bargain in sunny Florida! At least they understand what a service industry is meant to be over there. 

(  )

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smiley,

You have a cracking sense of humour,i read your posts this morning as last night i had a sudden urge to go cave hunting.........

Rixxy-there maybe some mileage in that suggestion....

Pat-i would have never of guessed you were a proffesional lady!!!! does more know??!!!!!

Roberto-dead on,our last few sales have been to Irish,Swedish,Norwegian,German,Spanish and even anice Scottish couple, the art of the game at the minute is to appeal to all nationalities not just your home nation,the big boys have not quite grasped this and thats why they are dissapearing,i was told yesterday that Pardaor and Atlas have only manged 1 sale between them this year.

This may be a rumour but i wouldn't be suprised at all!!!

Dijit-I think that story about buy 2  and 1 will pay for the other was trotted out so much in the past,fortunately now it has run out of mileage.

Right guys i am off for a day out with Gillespie down in Los Acazares,dreaming up plots to conquer the world...........

Nice to get a mix of humour back on the forum.....

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Not to mention the trick of buy 5 sell 4 before completion and the profit from the 4 will pay for the one you keep - only they were saying that to too many people and not telling them that developer paid their commission on receipt of deposits so no need for after sales care - not to mention the fact the commission from the developer was significantly higher than they got on the resale from the investor.

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Georgia, enjoy your day with our lovely mate, Gillespie.

Re the "profession" Pat & I take the cash.

"and even a nice Scottish couple"  God, don't tell me Auntie Em & Kenco have finally succombed to your boyish charms & bought ?? (No, I know they haven't but only because Em & I chat when she has time as she's very busy with work currently).

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Georgia - Ive been putting serious thought to this for 3 minutes (long time for me!) and reckon we need one with a one way window for watchers. Then we can auction the front row seats off for the highest bidders as well! Double bubble.

Gonna go to the town hall and see what the regulations are for dominatrix in Spain - unless Maria knows??????????????

Enjoy your day out with Gillespie - Im getting worried about you two!

Smiley - demonstrating menues cost you know!

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And I agree with DiJits comments about the room sized - I usually pace out and take notes on property as the UK and Irish cant really get their head around square metres for the whole size of a property - its difficult to imagine it oneself. Also a build size on a nota simple can vary hugely to the util size (interior) which valuers use and so it can be a little deceptive.

I have tried to buy a laser measure but could only find them in the states and despite the reputation of wonderful customer service, I never got a reply when trying to purchase 2 - that was 2 years ago!!!

If anyone knows where to get one in Spain at a reasonable price or fancies sending me en early birthday pressie, it would be much appreciated!

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Smiley said "that just leaves a role for me - now what can I think of that will suit my little fuschia number?"

Suits you, Sir, suits you.

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Bit too baby pink for me ....... but love it just the same ----- specially the spangly silvery bits.

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Rixxy, I think I mentioned to you once before that Bauhaus have laser measurers. On offer right now - €69 (a nicely appropriate figure for this thread, don't you think?) See it here: http://www.bauhaus.es/

I would think Leroy Merlin have something similar and is more convenient for you?

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Thanks Roberto! And Rational and others for all your replies! I shall be lasered up

That price is good and better than I last saw which was around 150 euros from a place in Madrid!

I will let you all know what I get

Many thanks again everyone!!

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I spoke with a friend today who is also looking to buy in CdS. Again on receiving notice of their interest the agent wrote as follows:-

"The property Ref: XXXXXX. is a property located East of Estepona within the micro climate that you have indicated.

We have been asked by the owner of this property in order to protect their privacy to register all clients that ask for information on location."

They replied saying they already had their contact details.

He responded acknowledging same with:-

"Please find attached some photos to give you an indication of the location from the front of the property and with views from the garden SSE and SW, both showing the sea.

Your name has been registered with the owners so if you would like to arrange a viewing of this property please can you confirm?"

At that point, having exchanged several further emails but with their request for a closer indication of area totally ignored, as they value their time they responded as follows:-

"Your sellers are being unnecessarily coy. When estate agents advertise property over here, as well as floor plans and room sizes, the advert gives the address and directions how to find the property, allowing potential buyers to go and check out the outside and neighbourhood so they can decide if they then want to view inside.
If we were in Spain, we would be driving round spotting the 'for sale' signs and the location would be our first information. Presumably this house displays a sign too, so it can be no secret to anyone passing where the houses for sale are and we would be able to be less concerned about the time taken to view properties that may be of no interest, once seen.

We are not in Spain. We are in Scotland. We cannot commit to the expense and and waste of our valuable time flying over to view a property without knowing the street it is on. How can anyone expect buyers to want to fork out huge amounts of money on incomplete information and a few pictures, usually taken with wide angled lens that make the rooms seem bigger than they are and are careful only to show the best points and ignore any failings? And some do have failings - 2 properties we viewed had huge cracks in walls and subsidence enough to prevent doors from closing. To say east of Estepona in the micro-climate is not good enough. Too much choice...we know for example, we do not like Atalaya beach side .

Since your vendors want to keep the location a secret, we have no further interest in their property. There are plenty of vendors happy to tell us what we need to know."

So a potential sale has been lost to the detriment of the seller, buyer and one or more agents.

Now please tell me who won out of this, who benefits from these bizarre arcane practices? Or do I just use big english words like muppet and d***head?

Last word to my friend "There are thousands of villas for sale out there on the web. Do they really think we're going to fly over without doing any basic research? We know the areas we like and the ones we wouldn't touch. East Estapona is one hell of a large and varied area! How can an agent justify a commission of 7-10% and be so amateurish? It's just one big sick joke."


This message was last edited by DiJit on 2/14/2008.

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Unbelievable! I don't mean I don't believe it, but......well, Muppet or d**head would be too polite. I must admit, though, I have never heard of any agents being so secretive over residential property. With commercial (businesses), yes, because often the vendor feels that his business may be compromised if clients get to know that he is planning on selling up.

Of course, agents may wish to protect their portfolio from their competitors, who they may think, in a fit of paranoia, may be posing as potential buyers, and they might also want to avoid the possibilty of a buyer going direct to the vendor, thereby cutting out their commission. UK agents probably don't worry about this, because they know that the commission they charge is not worth buyers taking the risk of upsetting anyone over. But if they tried charging 5% (do any agents here really still think they can even dream of charging more than 5%?), you can be sure buyers would start trying to cut them out.

In a buoyant market, when enquiries are flooding in and agents can't find properties fast enough to satisfy demand, well, yes, it would be easy to understand (although not condone) an agent being blasé and fobbing off all but the clients actually standing in their office with a blank cheque and pen at the ready. But in today's climate, it really is astonishing.

DiJit, maybe you should OK it with the EOS team first, but I say "name and shame" that agent! They don't deserve to still be in the game!

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Roberto, thanks for your support, although in my view it's impossible to defend the indefensible anyway.

However I'm still amazed at the lack of response from agents to my earlier assertations and in particular to the lack of response to my 'want to buy' signals. Actually they weren't signals I think I stated it quite clearly.

Other explanations might be that agents don't actually read eyeonSpain. It would be churlish to suggest agents perhaps can't read, wouldn't it?

Maybe agents just can't read!

Lastly, perhaps like lemmings they have a death wish.

Oh I do wish some of them would put their heads over the parapet and fight back.


This message was last edited by DiJit on 2/15/2008.

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