Lost our case against banco popular

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17 May 2017 16:38 by jim welsh Star rating in cardiff. 54 posts Send private message

We been fighting to get out deposit back for 14 years but have just lost our case against the bank in court . The reason we lost is because we bought 2 apartments and therefor classed as investors which does nt sit well with the Spanish courts . If we had only purchased one apartment we would have got our money back , I would be interested to know if there is anyone here who has won in court with multiple Properties .

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17 May 2017 17:13 by briando55 Star rating in Yorkshire. 1700 posts Send private message

Jim,  I'm really sirry to hear that, it must be a real blow for you.

I have been aware of the courts view of looking at multiple properties as being an investor purchase, but I did understand from a previous posting that two properties were an acceptable premise of being for ones own use, if argued correctly in court.   I am wondering if you have been represented correctly (maybe the advice shoukld have been to only seek money back for one?).

If you still have the stomach (and funds) for a further fight, send a message to Costa Luz lawyers for advice, I think it was they who had a two property case in the past.



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17 May 2017 17:31 by jim welsh Star rating in cardiff. 54 posts Send private message

Hi Brian  , our lawyer did argue that we bought the 2 apartments for ourselves and our children because 

they were next door to each other . We are appealing against the decision but I'm not holding out much hope .

The judge was a right piece of work he seemed to be siding with the lawyer representing the bank . 



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17 May 2017 18:57 by briando55 Star rating in Yorkshire. 1700 posts Send private message

Oh dear.   What region and court were you in?

 



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17 May 2017 19:13 by BREXIT Star rating. 41 posts Send private message

What a shock. Any apartment purchase, including just one could be classed as an investment. This could be a big win for the banks and a big worry for other claimants. Let’s see what Maria has to say.





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17 May 2017 19:22 by briando55 Star rating in Yorkshire. 1700 posts Send private message

It's true Brexit, even one could be an investment but the burden of proof would be on the bank to argue that one purchase by one couple would constitute an investment.   A single person also hard to argue.

a company or company bank account may be easy.   

But a couple buying two, next door to each other, that sounds dodgy to argue as a business investment.  It seems easier to argue as a family home, parents and children, siblings etc.  

If the bank provided a guarantee they should have included the investment note in there yes'?  

If they didn't provide a guarantee then it's against the law, if they didn't provide some information st the time don't you think?   

Maybe the judge didn't have a strong argument put in front of them, I think the lawyer gets their money anyway and an appeal brings in even more.  



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17 May 2017 20:16 by BREXIT Star rating. 41 posts Send private message

Hello Brian

Of course we don’t know all the details of this case.

But money deposited with a bank as a bank guarantee is just that, it always belongs to the client who has trusted the bank to keep safe custody of the money on their behalf. It was never given to the bank (investment or not purpose) as a gift to do as they pleased.

With regard to the judge in this case, as far as we know it is a straight forward case and not the (O J Simpson trail). Even if the OP lawyer was half asleep the case is simple enough for any judge to see. Even you or me could have presented this case.

This case could make big headlines. Definitely not good PR for ‘’a place in the sun’’.





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17 May 2017 20:29 by briando55 Star rating in Yorkshire. 1700 posts Send private message

Yes.  

Tell you what always troubled me.    When the builder went belly up the court had the banks listed as preferential creditors and us as ordinary creditors.   

But the banks had our money listed in the debts, and we had BG protection in law.   

Land the lawyers never even challenged it.    Doh.  



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17 May 2017 21:38 by baz1946 Star rating. 1830 posts Send private message

Jim.

This is probably way of track to your problem but you might be able to pick a little from it.

Some years back a chap I hardly knew put in planning permission for a bungalow which was sited just out side the village envelope,  got it passed with no problems, started building then some person reminded the council where it was so they put a stop to it, he didn't argue or appeal it, he went straight to the 'European Court of Human Rights'  if such still exists, the council backed down, the bungalow was built with full permission.

As I said way of track.





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17 May 2017 21:40 by BREXIT Star rating. 41 posts Send private message

Hello Brian

I am only an observer on this subject, but does it go something like this.

Pre 2007 all is rosy and no one can go wrong in the Spanish property market.

Billy Brit agrees to buy an off plan property from Bob the builder. In doing so Billy agrees to pay a deposit, but the deposit is placed with the bank to be held in Billy’s name until the property is complete and only paid to Bob the builder on completion. Billy’s money is safe and secure as this is a bank guarantee and if the property is not completed he gets his money back.

Bob the builder needs money to buy the land and build the property. So Bob goes to the same bank as Billy and borrows the money needed. To persuade the bank to lend him the money Bob points out he has pre sold the property re Billy’s deposit account.

Bank agrees to take the risk and loan Bob the money only secured on Bobs land and pile of bricks.

Then the property market collapses and Bob does a runner leaving the bank with a load of bad debt. The bank then decides ‘’SOD THIS’’ we’ll take Billy’s money to reduce the bad debt and in any case if illegal it will take Billy 10 years and a lot of legal fees to try and get it back, plus Billy is old and may well die.





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17 May 2017 21:53 by briando55 Star rating in Yorkshire. 1700 posts Send private message

Pretty accurate brexit old chum. 

Just a missing piece.

Bob the B thinks, wow the bank gave me the brass, now then what can I do to help the world of capitalism move forward.  

Well mr mainwaring, your bank has been so good, we bought more land, so we can do it all over again.   The bigger the land, the more pretend houses we can fit on, the more deposits we take.  Luvvly jubbly.   

Don't worry if it goes tits up, eagle the legal can get the next wave of cash and fudge the judge can stall for ever.   

Welcome to hotel espana, you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave    



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17 May 2017 22:59 by jim welsh Star rating in cardiff. 54 posts Send private message

I know one thing the Spanish legal system is still in the dark ages , and after seeing the performance of 

the judge at our court case he was going for the Oscar , he was a right prima Donna , like I said  before 

he seemed to give my lawyer a really hard time but let the banks lawyer off lightly , my case was held in Malaga 

it was against AIfos builders . 



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18 May 2017 18:46 by georgie1 Star rating. 57 posts Send private message

The development we were buying on had a lot of Spanish buying homes as investments as it was supposed to be a golfing paradise ( ha ha) are they saying that none have got the deposits back ? I would like to know where in the queue we are i n getting money back compared to the locals .





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19 May 2017 19:37 by jim welsh Star rating in cardiff. 54 posts Send private message

Before we had the bad news our lawyer told us of one buyer who had purchased 6 properties 

he told us the buyer did nt have a chance of getting his money back because he was obviously 

 

an investor , but at the end of the day whether you bought one or 6 properties you signed a legally binding 

contract , so looking at it from a legal point of view something is definately not right here , I don't know how 

the banks can get away it . 



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19 May 2017 20:29 by BREXIT Star rating. 41 posts Send private message

That would depend on the contract itself and how legally binding it was. Many were vague and some useless.  At the time no one expected or saw the property crash coming. Billy Brit was just too exited in getting the keys and making money. The whole thing revolved around the greed of the buyer, the banks and the builders.





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20 May 2017 01:21 by briando55 Star rating in Yorkshire. 1700 posts Send private message

It's true.  We wanted to buy a property and settle in Spain and work after our retirement in UK.  So looking at the options, an off plan purchase ready in 2 to 3 years was right for us.  

Once we discussed it and decided on the purchase, the sales people at the builders company kept contacting us saying, you can't lose, buy another off plan, buy two more, three more, all we need is a deposit and you can sell the property in a years time, even before it's built, for a profit.  

So we were being encouraged to become investors, by the builders themselves, when we had no intention of being investors...   we said no of course but the pressure was intense to buy more.   It was going to be a fast buck.  

Anyone who fell for that is paying double now because the court thinks they are 'investors'.  In reality they were scammed into buying further properties that were never going to exist.   

Do they sound like investors to you Brexit?    They don't to me 



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20 May 2017 07:05 by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 4719 posts Send private message

Whilst I have sympathy for those who lose money in many situations, I guess in many situations one is taking a bit of a gamble, especially if one is doing so ‘ to make a fast buck’ and gambling is risky: 

  I wonder how many who have lost in the property market in Spain used a lawyer.

 

                          



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20 May 2017 09:05 by briando55 Star rating in Yorkshire. 1700 posts Send private message

I tend to have sympathy with everyone when they are making a purchase and come up against people and systems that promise to deliver and then don't.  That's not gambling, it's placing faith in a person, or in the Spain property market a business and a bank.

There is no excuse for a business or a bank not using a mandatory law that's in place for the protection of a purchaser, that's the first simple answer to that John.   When a person gives over a deposit, at the exchange of a contract, with the promise of a guarantee, that's done in consideration of what's contained inside the contract.

What happens next in the contract is dependent on the expertise and professionalism of the people issuing the contract, if a guarantee or progress on the house doesn't come forward in the timescale in the contract, the contract is faulty.

Considering when to instruct a lawyer is something you have to place in a different thought process.   Let's say the two largest purchases you make in life are a house and a car.   Would anyone reading this consider taking a lawyers advice about how to buy a car and if the lawyer should be sent the contract to ensure its 'safe'.  

In the property market in Spain, the people gambling were the builders and banks, they want to be able to gamble and protect themselves from losing by dishonourable conduct in the contracts and guarantees that should have been provided in an honest and equitable manner.  

Having to start a process with the use and expense of a lawyer is something that is alien to people in a civilised society, but let's consider that for a second in these cases.

Looking at the way the lawyers did not know about ley 57/1968 and had to be driven by the action of an English man taking this through court and establishing the case law necessary to prosecute, what difference would the use of a lawyer make in these off plan cases anyway?



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20 May 2017 10:04 by baz1946 Star rating. 1830 posts Send private message

Tell you this much the Bank is 1000% at fault, and using a lawyer is the correct way of doing things, just because someone always tells of doing house sales by themselves with no lawyer or any trouble its wise to remember would they be bragging if things did go wrong, my ex Father in law was a professional big time gambler on the horses, he told  everyone of the wins he had, he never ever lost...Or should I say, never told one word of these losses.





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20 May 2017 10:43 by BREXIT Star rating. 41 posts Send private message

Brian the main problem was that ‘’bonded client accounts’’ were not used. Often this is an escrow account – a blocked account where neither party can get at the funds until the sale is finalised. "The laws are too lax and full of loopholes that tend to favour the scammers. "There have been too many unscrupulous promoters, developers, estate agents, lawyers, notaries, town halls, etc involved in the process, whose main aim has been to make as much money as fast as possible. "Their attitude has no concern about the lack of morality, let alone legality or corruption in all this. The sentiment that buyers are suckers who don't understand anything here and can't see past the beaches and bars when they buy is widespread. "Some expats are naive enough to believe that things should work here as they do in the UK or northern Europe, when that is a pipe dream. "And finally, the courts are slow and there are very few other recourses or ways to put things right here."



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