GB versus Spanish Pensions

It appears that in the countries that pay a high state pension, the employer also pays a significant amount into the state pension fund.  In those countries very few employees pay into a company scheme as stated in this conversation.  Norway is the same as Spain with the employer paying a significant contribution towards their employees state pension.  As in Spain, Norwegians are only now starting to set up company or private pensions in great numbers.

Has anybody any ideas about how the German pensioners paid for their pensions - according to Which, their maximum state pension is £26,366, a similar level to the Spanish maximum pension.  I expect we will find that the German employer contributes heavily towards it.  I always thought the German and Dutch pensioners were the wealthiest in Europe.  At least they always seemed to give that impression when on holiday.

Bobaol

Thank you for the information on healthcare.  We in the UK tend to think we are the only ones with a free health care system.  What is the qualification for free healthcare?  If you do not have a friend or relative to take care of your personal needs in hospital, do you then have to pay for the hospital to supply a personal carer or do you have to hire your own?  In the UK this type of personal carer role should be done by a health care assistant (HCA) but in practice, a nurse, staff nurse or even sister often does the work, depending on who is available.  The HCA does all the personal carer duties as well as taking pulse, blood pressure and temperatures.  It is very annoying seeing a highly skilled sister making beds or helping with meals. 

Why should seeing a Nursing sister providing basic care annoy you?  You should feel reassured and applaud it. It is NURSING  care and when we see in the UK ,reports of neglect because basic nursing care is not being given, and suggestions that Nursing degree students should spend a year of their course doing basic care as a health assistant. it is obvious that more nursing care at ALL levels is what is needed. Are you saying it is beneath a highly qualified nurse to give basic care? Yes, nursing is more technical and specialised, but no-one should feel that nursing care is beneath them or a waste of their skills.

I speak as a former nursing sister

As we are short staffed in the NHS and unable financially to employ sufficient staff to cover all ward duties, it is a waste of their highly trained skills to spend their time making beds.  HCA's are perfectly capable of doing this task and they cost the NHS a lot less than a staff nurse or sister.  Whilst you are making the beds a patient may need their catheter changing - a job that can't be done by a HCA.

I have never nursed but I would not consider changing beds ready for the next patient nursing care.  Nor do I advocate treating patients like South Staffs did,  There was a total lack of care by any grade and the sisters did not have to make the beds to realise that.  There is such a thing as delegation where the sister allocates the less technical or skilled tasks to other staff, including the HCA.

Being self-employed in Spain and paying about 900€ a month contributions is why when retired you get such a good pension, in the UK self-employed contributions start at a couple of quid a week up to about £8 or £10 a week, this gives you the basic state pension. If in England you payed approximately £180 a week in contributions then we would get about the same state pension.....But in England many wont even pay the smaller sum, and then complain about the low pension.

Spain is not in trouble because of these amounts it pays out to pensioners, and not so is England, that is just a small piece of the puzzle, it's the lack of producing anything which in turn creates jobs, increases spending power, makes tax revenue, creates all round wealth, we like many other countries that are in trouble now produce next to nothing anymore....China does though, we buy, and put a paltry profit on top, not good for anything.

Baz1946

The National Insurance rate in the UK is now:

• 12% on your weekly earnings between £149 and £797
• 2% on any weekly earnings over £797

There used to be a cap on how much you paid but now you pay only 2% earnings above £797.

The income tax rate is quite low with the absolute maximum at 40% and most paying 20%

This is a lot less than you are paying.  Most people don't think about pensions until they are nearing retirement by which time it is too late to make any significant financial plans. I hear a lot of people complaining in the UK about public service pensions but they also had the choice of getting a public sector job but decided they were too boring.  A journalist has recently criticised the police pension but whilst the journalist had his very interesting job, the poor policeman was walking the beat, working varied shifts and sometimes putting her/himself in dangerous situations, all to protect the public.

 I hear a lot of people complaining in the UK about public service pensions but they also had the choice of getting a public sector job ............................

So how would it work for everyone to work in the public sector ? Who would create the wealth to pay the taxes to pay the public sector and subsidise the guaranteed inflation proofed pensions ? For the same benefits someone in the private sector with a personal pension plan would have to contribute 30+% of their salary whilst subsidising the public sector pension bill whose members pay a fraction of the real cost.

 Didn't I read somewhere that Greece had 80% of its workforce employed by the state?   So that's where that gets you!!

I realise not everybody can work in the public sector, to say that would be stupid.  Greece may be in the state it is in because there is a lot of corruption in the state and a lot of tax evasion as well.

When young people leave university and start job hunting, you do not hear them shout with joy 'look I've got a terrific job with the police'.  They all want really interesting jobs anywhere but the public sector.  Jobs with the media seem to be near the top of the wish list.  They do not  consider types of pension schemes but will be cheered by company phones and cars.  When they get to retirement age, they then look at the police pension and other public sector and final salary pensions with a lot of envy, media types most of all.

NB.  I have a final salary pension to which I and my employer contributed.  I do not have a police, civil service or any other type of public service pension.

I'll say it again.........................................................

I hear a lot of people complaining in the UK about public service pensions but they also had the choice of getting a public sector job ............................

So how would it work for everyone to work in the public sector ? Who would create the wealth to pay the taxes to pay the public sector and subsidise the guaranteed inflation proofed pensions ? For the same benefits someone in the private sector with a personal pension plan would have to contribute 30+% of their salary whilst subsidising the public sector pension bill whose members pay a fraction of the real cost.

and add that many people have tried to make provsion for retirement but due to the financial crisis their savings are not growing, in fact falling because of inflation and when they are due to retire the value of pension they can buy as an annuity has completely bombed (over 50% in the last 10 years) with many not having enough time or resources left to make up the loss, whereas public sector are protected from the real world courtesy of the taxpayer. I speak as a recipient of a very small public sector pension but at least I realise how lucky I am and grateful to have that as I also understand the realities of the real world my husband having worked in the private sector with no cushion all his working life.

I don't know anyone who left university with a top job wish list of the media.

My point is that when young people are looking for jobs they do not consider pension provisions.  Now, if you are offered a job you will snatch their hands off never mind the pension type but those complaining today entered the job market over 30 years ago and had a much bigger choice back then.

Many young people I know work in computers/IT, finance, PR, finance, private transport and one works for a TV production company.  One is a nurse and one a teacher.  Only the nurse and teacher considered the public sector because they wanted that particular job, not because of the pension scheme.   The one who works in TV  production told me how sought after jobs in the media are and how jealous her friends are at her good luck.  Now, move the calendar forward 30 years and they will all be fretting about their pensions - nurse and teacher less so than those with fancier jobs.  Some will be complaining about the two with public sector pensions and I would like to be there to remind them of what they said when we discussed their career choice.

We are all suffering from the fact that our savings interest rates are not keeping up with inflation and frankly at times I think I would be better hiding it under the mattress.  Obviously it is worse for those who are trying to build up a private pension pot.  I do not know what is going to happen to those with interest only mortgages who have not made any plans to pay the capital sum at the end of the mortgage period.  Plus there are some out there with endowment mortgages and have huge shortfalls never mind the bonuses they expected to get.  The only good news is that if you obtain a mortgage the interest rates are very low and not the 17% I remember paying a few years into my mortgage.

Another thing that you have to consider, & not many people know about, is that if you have paid in to at least 2 state pension systems in 2 different EU states your pension from each country paying comes under 'EU Pension Rules' & is worked out under a different set of rules which have far higher payments !  This has the effect of increasing payments by around 25%.

Many spaniards of older generations qualify for this by virtue of having worked in other countries for many years. Most of my spanish neighbours qualified or have the right when due.

My brother benefited from this having worked most of his life in Germany & only the first few years in the UK.

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/retire/state-pension-claims-and-calculation/index_en.htm

 Free healthcare is available to all EU citizens over pensionable age in their home country and those of 18 and under.  It is also available if you work in Spain and pay into the social security system.  If you took out residency before April 12th 2012 and earn less than 100,000 euros a year you also get free healthcare.  If you are under pensionable age and have paid the equivalent of NI in your home country, you can transfer the care for up to 3 years across to Spain.  You also get free healthcare if your partner is over pensionable age and you are not.  For example, my wife was 60 when we moved over (she was one of the last to scrape in under that retirement age) and I get free healthcare despite not being 65 which is my pensionable age (I think I make it by being born 2 months under the deadline) and she is classed as pensionista and I am beneficiario de pensionista.

Private medical insurance is all well and good but it is very difficult to get if you have a pre-existing condition and goes up in cost the older you get (when you need it more).  The state hospitals have very good specialists and provide excellent care.  Since being here, we have used them twice-neither which entailed a stay in hospital.  I used it as a non-resident some years ago and the A&E department were brilliant.  Cracked a rib and was seen by a triage nurse, a doctor, x-rayed and even had an ECG.  In and out with all results and treatment within 40 minutes which I thought was fantastic and all by using the EHIC.  My wife, as a resident, was referred to rheumatology by the local GP and the appointment was given for 3 days later.  Excellent service at Torrevieja hospital and she was seen with no waiting (good appointment system) with professional advice.  However, you do need to speak Spanish, or at least try, else you have to provide your own interpreter but the A&E department (plus nurse and doctor) did speak English once I spoke to them in Spanish at first.

Regarding nursing care (bit off topic, I know) in UK.  My daughter is a nurse from the old school who did her training at nursing college and on the wards..  She regularly does what you would call HCA work by assisting people to eat, changing beds, giving bed baths and so on.  She is always complaining about the modern, degree standard nurse who she agrees belong to the "too posh to wash" sisterhood.  They seem to have plenty of time to hover round the nursing station and chatting when they haven't got enough time to ensure Mrs Bloggs actually eats her food.  (Her opinions, not mine).

Back to pensions.  Some people will not take out a private pension when offered, hence the government's new system where you have to actually opt out of an occupational pension.  We used to offer a private pension scheme to employees and, whilst most of them did take it out when it was explained to them, several didn't as they thought it would cost them.  The employee paid 4% and the employer 14%.  The 4% was also given tax relief.  My pension, as a manager, was 6% contributions and 14% by the employer. Even though I only worked there for 12 years, I now get a pension of £500 a month which helps greatly (although the government in UK would take tax off that when adding it to my other pension).  I will be eligible for the state pension in a couple of years time but only the very basic.  The minimum payment guarantee in UK would up the basic pension considerably for anyone without a private pension or savings.  

The raising of state pension age in UK is not specific to UK, despite what many think.  Most countries in Europe have upped the retirement age.  Countries like France and Greece retain the lower age (in France they went on strike when it was raised from 60 to 62) whereas Germany is considering raising it from 67 to 69.  

 Of course you are right to say that young people don't worry about pensions - I am pretty sure I did not when I was younger, because everything is going to be great and you are going to make a pot of money and won't have to worry.   Reality does click in late for some people but one of the problems is that people generally don't realise how much they have to have in the pension pot to get a good pension.   The figure that did it for me, years ago, was some random guy on radio 4 who said imagine what you want in addition to the state pension, and then mulitply that  annual amount by 20.  That is what you need in the pot (combined employers, own contribution and tax benefits).   So, take a modest £10000 annual pension and you would need a pot of £200000 to give you that.   I can tell you I reviewed my own pension investments  pretty quickly after that.   

And just to note - that teacher, and NHS worker (whether doctor or nurse or administrator), joining now, will not get final salary pensions, and they will get something that relates much more closely to what they have paid in through averaging out.

guslopez, that is amazing re the two countries.  I wonder if that will continue?

" So, take a modest £10000 annual pension and you would need a pot of £200000 to give you that. "

!! More like 3-400,000k .

 Yes - rates deteriorated significantly after that - but it is at least a marker.    And for £100000 you can still buy an annuity for £5000 - so not too far off the mark!!

A £5,000 pension per £100,000 pension pot is for a level payment annunity that wont ever increase. For an annuity that increases 2-3% a year £100,000 only buys a pension of about £2,500, so for a £10,000 pension increasing by 2-3% each year a pension pot of £400,000 is needed. 10 years ago annuities were giving returns of 10% so someone saving into a personal pension  does not have enough time to make up the shortfall as they need to double the value of their pension pot, it's not that they haven't saved but they are victims of the crisis with no secure taxpayer funded subsidy.

Pensions: When I started work I was not earning as much as some of my friends but over the years I was promoted and eventually ended up with a reasonable salary.  What I did not realise until halfway through my career, was that my company pension scheme was a final salary one and I was getting a pretty accurate prediction of my pension at retirement at age 60 or 65.  My friends however did not seem to know anything about their pensions and told me they would worry about pensions when they retired.  Some were under the impression that their endowment bonus could be added to their pension.  They gradually realised there would not be any bonus.

As final salary schemes are as dead as a dodo, what type of pension schemes are now being offered by the large corporations and do they give an idea of your final pension or are they all at the mercy of the investments stock market. I hear terms like 'average salary scheme' I presume this is the same as a final salary scheme but your pension is calculated on your average salary rather than a final salary.  Now I've also heard of defined contributions and defined benefits schemes but what they are I have no idea

Nursing care: my local hospital uses volunteers to help with feeding patients, providing drinks, reading etc.  They are CRB checked and work under the direction of the nursing staff.   I think this is a wonderful idea as it frees up nurses to do other nursing jobs. I also know a 'degree standard' nursing sister and she is a really caring person and in no way could be referred to as 'too posh to wash'. In fact she decided to become a geriatric care nurse - not the glamour side of nursing - because she loved caring for her granny after she had a serious operation. Geriatric patients need more personal care than most patients and she was not put off by this.  She chose the degree route because of career advise from RCN and older nurses in the family. She did not spend all her time in college but spent a great deal of time in hospitals during the course and before she qualified.  She also helps with the washing and bed baths etc. but in many cases it is because they are short staffed or the older nurses are too busy chatting to their friends or resent the fact that their nursing sister is a 'degree standard' nurse.  I have seen many old style trained nurses in hospitals who are too lazy to move and especially during the night shift, find corners to hide in to avoid the patients and sister.  I think there are good and bad nurses and it does not matter how they are trained, degree or original route. The best nurses I have found in my hospital stays are from the Phillipines and that is because they treat their patients with respect instead of making them feel a burden.

I have ( or will have in June next year) 9 years and three monthsof employment in the Spanish company I work for, All of those working months have been contributed at the highest level possible. I cant get into the self calculation software and am asking can anyone tell me the likely pension I will receive from the state on retirement, I will be 65 years old.

I also have the full compliment of years in the UK state pension scheme, and hopefully can draw that as well ??

Since 2010 you only need 30 qualifying years national insurance contributions to receive the full UK state pension (previously 44 for men and 39 for women.  From the introduction of the new universal pension in 2016, the number of years contributions will be increased to 35 for both sexes.  That's of course if the new government does not change the qualifying years again.

I'm afraid I can't help with the Spanish system but I'm sure many others will be able to help you.

Good luck and a long, healthy and happy retirement.