SPANISH PROPERTY LAWS ON ILLEGAL PROPERTIES

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29 Jul 2011 00:00 by bob.dunford6 Star rating. 49 posts Send private message

 THEIR MUST BE SOME BODY OUT THERE WHO CAN TELL US THE SPANISH PROPERTY LAWS.

QUESTIONS I HAVE

1/ IS THE NOTARY WORD FINAL.

WHEN THE NOTARY STAMPS YOUR PROPERTY DEEDS .AFTER CHECKING WITH THE SPANISH LAND REGISTRY AND LOCAL COUNCIL PLANNING DEPARTMENT.IS THE STAMPING OF THE PROPERTY DEEDS BY HIM.MAKING THE PROPERTY FULLY LEGAL.

SOME ABOGADO'S I HAVE ASK HAVE SAID .HALF AND HALF.

SOME HAVE SAID .YES IT MUST BE FULLY LEGAL .THEY TOOK YOUR LAWYERS FEES TO DO ALL THE SEARCHES. DID'NT THEY.

A SPANISH JUDGE ,HAS SAID OF COURSE IT MUST BE FULLY LEGAL.A NOTARY MUST NOT SALE ILLEGAL PROPERTIES .HE WOULD LOSE HIS LICENSE TO BE A NOTARY,WHENHE TAKES YOUR FEE YOU ARE HIS CLIENT.HE MUST CHECK WITH THE LAND REGISTRY .AND LOCAL COUNCIL  PLANNING DEPARTMENT,IF THE LAND REGISTRY OR COUNCIL DO NOT APPROVE OF HIS HANDLING OF THE PROPERTY IE MAKING IT LEGAL.THEY MUST TAKE IT TO A LAW COURT.THE JUDGE WOULD DECIDE.AND IF IT WAS PROVEN ILLEGAL ALL MONIES MUST BE CHANGED BACK.THIS IS THE LAW OF SPAIN.

SO WHERE ARE WE .THEIR ARE 3 MILLION ILLEGAL HOMES WITHOUT MAINS WATER ,SOME WITHOUT ELECTRICITY BECAUSE THEY ARE CONSIDERED ILLEGAL.ALTHOUGH THEY HAVE SIGNED AND STAMPED PROPERTY DEEDS.

SO PLEASE .PLEASE SOME BODY OUT THEIR WHO HAS PASSED OUT TO BE A SPANISH LAWYER.OR EVEN A STUDENT WHO COULD ASK HIS UNIVERSITY OF LAW.WHAT IS THE LAW..

WHEN YOU SIT BACK AND THINK ABOUT IT.YOU PAY A SPANISH LAWYER HIS FEES TO CHECK OUT A PROPERTY FOR YOU.

HE TELLS YOU HE HAS AND STAMPS YOUR PROPERTY DEEDS.DOES THE STAMPING OF THE PROPERTY DEEDS MEAN THE PROPERTY IS ILLEGAL.OR LEGAL..IT CANT BE BOTH WAYS.

THIS QUESTION HAS BEEN ASK AND ASKED IN THE EUROPEAN PARLIMENT SO MANY TIMES .EVEN IN BRUSSELS.

THE ONLY QUESTION WE ARE LEFT WITH IS THAT SPAIN HAS NOT GOT ANY LAWS ON SPANISH PROPERTY.

WHY ARE WE PAYING FEES TO A LAWYER WHO CANT HELP YOU,

IT GOES AROUND AND AROUND.

IF YOU DO KNOW SOME THING ABOUT THE SPANISH PROPERTY LAWS PLEASE EMAIL ME

 

 





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29 Jul 2011 18:39 by Faro Star rating in London. 1139 posts Send private message

You buy what you buy and it's not for the notary to say if it's suitable.

If you buy rustic land with a casa de aperos and an alberca - that's not a villa and a swimming pool!

The notary does not go out and check and take measurements.

So escritura may say 40 sq m shed but in reality we have a 500 sq m villa.

But you should end up with good title to a field.

 





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29 Jul 2011 19:26 by lobin Star rating. 245 posts Send private message

 I believe you are confusing legal title or legal ownership of the property with legal construction of the building on such land or use of the building for as a residence.

When the the parties appear before the Notary to sign the Escritura, the Notary will check that the buyer wants to sell the property in the terms and conditions mentioned in the Deed and that the seller wants to buy under those terms and conditions.  The Notary will also make sure that the seller is the legal owner of the property registered as such in the Land Registry and that there are no registered liens or embargoes on the property.  If there are any, those liens will be mentioned in the Escritura.  The Notary will also check that both seller and buyer are who they claim to be and if they are represented by some else, that the proper Power of Attorney is in place and is sufficient for the transaction.

The Notary does not have to check, and normally will not do so, that the construction on the land has been built with the right license from the authorities and that it has the necessary authorization to be used as a residence (first occupation certificate).  Likewise, the Notary will not check that all taxes and community fees are up to date.  These items need to be checked by the buyer or the buyer's lawyer when he has hired one. If the buyer is acting on the representation of these issues by the seller, it is convenient to have them mentioned in the Deed to help substantiate a claim against the seller.  But  if they are not, this fact will not interfere with the transfer of legal ownership to the property.

One thing is legal ownership which the Notary does check and certify.  A different thing is a legally erected building according to the building license and the use of it as a residence.

I hope this has help to clarify your question.

 



This message was last edited by lobin on 29/07/2011.



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29 Jul 2011 19:52 by Faro Star rating in London. 1139 posts Send private message

Lobin - excellent reply and you put it better than me!

Bottom line is hire an independent lawyer and ask lots of questions and don't listen to estate agent telling you this is how it is in Spain - ie buy a plot of rustic land and apply for a licence to build a shed and water storage for animals or irrigation and then build a super villa with magnificant pool and then expect the EU to step in and stop demolition or say the town hall are to blame for not stopping you and everyone else doing it in the first place.

Somedays I belive many people have just been stupid and are looking for someone to blame and saying oh but the builder said his cousin worked in the Town Hall and he would sort the licence ..........

 





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31 Jul 2011 07:03 by bob.dunford6 Star rating. 49 posts Send private message

 this is not nuclear science.with illegal properties

first thing a law student learns in his univercity of law.is-anything illegal must Not be sold to the unknowing public.

THE UNKOWING PUBLIC.-------Is this right or wrong?

Be it illegal Drugs.illegal stolen Jewellery,illegal Cars.illegal Poisoned Food -Meat or Veg.Gas and Electrical Appliences,Which are Dangerous.And illegal Homes(Because they are illegal they cannot have Legal Property Deeds)

How can you have Legal Document ,On some thing which is illegal.This is against the Law,And this is also Taught in all the University's

ie Legal Document (Property Deeds) for a illegal House.

Why bring you own Honest Lawyer In ,When you should have Honest Lawyers in Property Deals.

If as we all know a Spanish Judge's Or Mayor's of a Spanish Town is found Untrustworthy they are sent to a Law Court,

And Selling of anything illegal is a Crime against the Public.And has a Prison Sentence Attached.In any European Law Court.

You all can read this up .If you put your self out,

Just ask any Law Student,

So as i said in the first place every European  MP.Is fighting this problem.It has been Mentioned in the European Law Courts,,European Parliment. and Brussels.Mentioned to your own Prime Minister,by Marta Andreasen EU MP.

Don't you think she would have got the law right before she spoke to him,

So please look it all up for your selves go to any European MP. 

 





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31 Jul 2011 18:42 by ads Star rating. 4012 posts Send private message

Bob you are presumably talking about the Spanish Government's retrospective actions without an adequate compensation package in place, which is the crux of the matter.(Apologies if I have misunderstood this by the way!)

It might well be stated that these actions appear to be an illegal act according to the EU declaration of human rights, but the problem comes when trying to enforce this legal argument from within  the Spanish justice system,  a system that is inconsistent and suffers systemic failure to enforce rulings. It's a catch 22 situation that requires a solution.

I suspect that unless the Spanish Government introduce some form of compensation package themselves (highly unlikely), or withdraw the illegal status that blights so many properties (you need to investigate the current situation on the ground so to speak),  that the argument can only be won by demonstrating (via petition evidence and a review of enforcement statistics) that a "member state" is failing in its duty to enforce the law, and thereby requires outside intervention (via the European Commission) to enforce a fair compensation package, either by EU budgetary controls at their disposal, or some form of infringement process. And it affects not only those who fall under the remit of illegal properties, but all those who are currently being denied enforcement of their successful rulings in Spain.

This aspect re existing property rights being compromised by lack of enforcement in Spain requires further investigation.... and there are some looking into this as we speak, but it is early days on that score.

I do understand your frustration however.

Regarding property registered in the Land Registry, it appears that due to lack of prior regulation that  it was possible to register an illegal property (hence the latest reform of the law), i.e. a property that did not have either an LFO, and/or a construction licence and/or technical certificate in place,

The new law LEY 8/2011 dated 1 July 2011now states:

The decree states that it is not possible to register a new property on the Land Registry unless it has a licence of first occupation, a construction licence and a technical certificate which states that the property corresponds to the plans for which the licence was granted. 

It appears a clear admission that it was previously possible for a developer to register an ILLEGAL property on the Land Registry!!

Which begs the question, WHERE DOES THIS LEAVE THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN COMPROMISED BY LACK OF REGULATION IN THE PAST?

Perhaps Faro might wish to pass comment on this?

Also as far as I can comprehend after listening to the recent seminar on property rights in Spain, the suggestion has been made that purchasers who place their trust in legal conveyancing professionals (lawyers), do so under the rightful premise that purchasers are not knowing of the facts relating to complexities within the Spanish system, and have every right to expect their legal representatives to act with all due diligence and knowledge according to the existing laws of Spain, and to act in their best interests on all matters.



This message was last edited by ads on 31/07/2011.



This message was last edited by ads on 31/07/2011.



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01 Aug 2011 10:05 by Faro Star rating in London. 1139 posts Send private message

In Spain it's very much a case of caveat emptor - buyer beware.





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19 Aug 2011 17:37 by sandra Star rating in . 806 posts Send private message

sandra´s avatar

I do wish that Maria would add her views to the points raised in ads's and bob's posts. 

Faro's comment,

"In Spain it's very much a case of caveat emptor - buyer beware."

leaves me thinking that  it is just too risky a business to buy a property in Spain. After all if the lawyer and the rest of the legal sector involved in property purchase are negligent, ignorant or just plainly flout Spain's laws it is a wonder that anyone buys in Spain anymore. 

 It appears Spain's 'legal system'  is in name only and not fit for purpose.

 


 



This message was last edited by sandra on 19/08/2011.

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19 Aug 2011 18:05 by janie2003 Star rating. 129 posts Send private message

 

I THINK WHAT THE PROBLEM IS THE ESTATE AGENTS ALWAYS RECOMEND A GESTOR WHICH IS CHEAPER BUT NOT LEGALLY QUALIFIED THEN THE PROBLEMS START!!

 What you need to do is employ a good lawer, i have one.

buy in an established Spanish area, they are not going to hurt there own.

I thought it was ALWAYS Caveat Emptor any where in the world.

Remember the motto of the Roman empire

SI VIS PAZ PARABELLUM  if you seek peace prepare for war you do this by using a good solicitor.

I certainly dont have any problems.

 



This message was last edited by janie2003 on 19/08/2011.



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19 Aug 2011 18:43 by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5241 posts Send private message

Getting a good lawyer is good advice, but having dealt with lawyers in the criminal area throughout my working life I probably knew half a dozen whom I would have employed. I have also prosecuted a few and knew several more who were lucky that the Law Society gave them a way off the hook.
 
Find a good lawyer.     What test can you apply?   
 
More often than not, it can only be after the event that you might know how good they were.  If all goes well then (maybe) he or was is a good lawyer, or maybe both of you were lucky.   
 
I have bought and sold several properties in Spain and have never employed a lawyer, Ok I was lucky maybe.   People whom I have sold to have had a couple of problems because the lawyer they employed was not that good, despite the buyers believing they were the best, on at least two occasions they were certainly expensive.   So make your choice to have a lawyer or not, and keep your fingers crossed that you made the right choice !!





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19 Aug 2011 18:44 by janie2003 Star rating. 129 posts Send private message

 its obvious ask people who know

and would they buy in the uk without a lawyer and what should you do nthere?

ASK AROUND

Oh and surely nobody would have illegal property laws they will be legal property laws that you need to observe and follow

This message was last edited by janie2003 on 19/08/2011.



This message was last edited by janie2003 on 19/08/2011.



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19 Aug 2011 22:22 by campana Star rating in Marbella. 474 posts Send private message

campana´s avatar

The expression "caveat emptor" applies everywhere. 

I agree that it is wise to employ a lawyer.  A recommendation or reference from a satisfied client is useful!  As Janie says:  Ask around. 

 

Patricia





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20 Aug 2011 10:08 by johnzx Star rating in Spain. 5241 posts Send private message

Quote " who would buy in UK without a lawyer'"
 
There is no need to use a lawyer in UK to buy a property (See advice in Which Magazine of many years ago).
 
  In effect it's no different from buying a car or anything else.  You must satisfy yourself that the person from whom you are buying has legal title.
 
 All the searches at local authorities, Property Registry etc can be carried out by the  buyer.  Application to a Building Society for a mortgage again can be done by the buyer. I did precisely that when I bought my property when I was 20. 
 
The problem with not using a solicitor in UK is caused by the Building Societies who try to insist that there is one and delay things if there is not.   They even have problems with conveyancing agents.   'The old pals club' alive and well.
 
As I said, no different from buying a car (in the UK at least) and how many of us would even think of employing a solicitor for that?





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20 Aug 2011 10:14 by janie2003 Star rating. 129 posts Send private message

 THATS NOT WHAT I SAID. WE ALL KNOW THAT BUT WHO WOULD HAVE THE CONFIDENCE AND THE TIME TO DO IT THEMSELVES

MOST PEOPLE USE A SOLICITOR IN THE UK THAT WAS MY ONLY POINT. AND SHOULD ANYTHING GO WRONG YOU HAVE THE BENEFIT OF BEING COVERED BY THE SOLICITORS LIABILTY INSURANCE IN THE UK THAT IS

HERE ESPECIALY AS IT SEEMS NOBODY KNOWS THE RULES NOR SPEAKS THE LANGUAGE IT WOULD SEEM A LITTLE DIFFICULT TO GO IT ALONE

 



This message was last edited by janie2003 on 20/08/2011.



This message was last edited by janie2003 on 20/08/2011.



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23 Aug 2011 19:35 by janie2003 Star rating. 129 posts Send private message

 Of course there is they are called ABOGADOS





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23 Aug 2011 20:09 by normansands Star rating in Kent. 1281 posts Send private message

Dear All,

don't buy a property unitl you have bought the Book "the conveyancing fraud"

and then "lawyers can seriously damage your health"

I knew there was something I liked about this John chappy

keep it up mate.

Regards

Norman



_______________________
N. Sands



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