Mac's Poll - Let's Vote

DonLochnagar said:
Saturday, October 19, 2013 @ 7:52 AM

All that is being said is that you have to declare them not that they are getting taxed. If you had foreign assets and you lived in the UK, you would have to declare them as well.

Ron said:
Saturday, October 19, 2013 @ 8:11 AM

So much for Cameron advocating that so many Brits were going to Spain that it would balance the books with his Bulgarian and Romanian influxes on January 1st. The law is the same throughout Europe. Basically, if you have loads of dosh you can get round it, if you are just an ordinary Jo you are stuffed.

Venator said:
Saturday, October 19, 2013 @ 8:11 AM

I was made redundant in the UK this year and considered moving to Spain. I have rental property in the UK and would have let my main UK home as well, this would have given me enough income to live while I decided what to do next. Our house in Spain would make a good family home but the draconian attitude that would appear to persist has put me off the idea.
I genuinely feel that if the Spanish could get away with it they would tax people on the amount of time they had the benefit of the hours of sunshine each day.....
There is a danger in my view of killing the golden goose.

Jesus said:
Saturday, October 19, 2013 @ 8:58 AM

Article smells of scaremongering , why would anyone in their right mind declare assets to the corrupt morally bankrupt thieves that run Spain. Don't do it they will steal every hard end penny you have. Better to declare yourself a non resident. Does anyone one know of a single case of anyone being fined for non declaration?

Come on Take some lessons from the locals and don't get sucked into the scare mongering lawyers and tax advisers trying to squeeze the last drop from this flat economy. Think smart dont fall for it!

Michael Budd said:
Saturday, October 19, 2013 @ 9:04 AM

Although a different subject, I have moved out of Spain after 7 years because of the 'complementary' tax that Spain is now charging anyone who has purchased within the last 4-5 years. I moved in March 2012 and paid the mandatory 8% purchase tax on the sum agreed for my apartment. About this time last year my solicitor advised me that the tax authorities had re-valued the catastral value to over twice what i paid for the apartment, therefore asking me for the difference in tax....9,500 €. I cant pay this, so basically, my Spanish bank account has been embargoed, and I have been forced to leqve my apartment in spain, and am now living inna rental in the U.K.

Seamus said:
Saturday, October 19, 2013 @ 9:07 AM

What's the problem? I declare my Spanish property to the Irish Tax Revenue people. I declare every year my income from rentals and expenditure. I spend less than 183 days in Spain anyway. No problem. Same rules for every European country resident I'm pretty sure. Get a life everyone!

D J F said:
Saturday, October 19, 2013 @ 9:16 AM

It's a fact of life that tax usually has to be paid wherever you reside. The Spanish system is no more or less draconian than the British system.
You do not have to be mega rich to get the sort of advise that supposedly "gets round it" as has been suggested. All that you need is good reliable advise and Blevins Franks is one of a few companies that can provide it.
I can never understand the attitude that expats have that it is not right that they have to pay tax when they go to live abroad.
I rent in Spain, I have investments which provide an income to top up my pensions and because I have been up front with the tax authorities I get a rebate every year all submitted by an accountant who charges 40 euros for the service.
Don't forget to use your UK tax allowance to use against income earned there even when you live abroad.
See, good advise.
The black economy in Spain is gradually coming to an end, live with it, or go back to UK and pay over the odds for fuel, food, heating etc.

patti12 said:
Saturday, October 19, 2013 @ 9:19 AM

I have an apartment on Mallorca left to me by my very close Cousin who died out there. The inheritance tax on the two bedroom property was astronomical ! So I applied, through my lawyers for an extension if about three months. I paid by the due date, I pay all my taxes, council rates etc. this week after nearly three years they have decided to charge me interest on the extension granted!!!! €1400. I live in the UK have retired three years, with state pension and no other means of income, I am trying to sell but we all know how difficult this is, so I'm stuck between a rick and a hard place. Can't sell paying more for the apt there than for my place here !!! They seem to be extracting as much money from us without checking their circumstances. Can't wait to sell. !!! Tainted my regard for Spain, and such a lovely Country, I think they're shooting themselves in the foot !!!! They need tourism and investors, not sure if this is the right way, squeezing money from people who can't afford it, same the world over I suppose.

Michael Budd said:
Saturday, October 19, 2013 @ 9:23 AM

Although a different subject, I have moved out of Spain after 7 years because of the 'complementary' tax that Spain is now charging anyone who has purchased within the last 4-5 years. I moved in March 2012 and paid the mandatory 8% purchase tax on the sum agreed for my apartment. About this time last year my solicitor advised me that the tax authorities had re-valued the catastral value to over twice what i paid for the apartment, therefore asking me for the difference in tax....9,500 €. I cant pay this, so basically, my Spanish bank account has been embargoed, and I have been forced to leqve my apartment in spain, and am now living inna rental in the U.K.

wodger said:
Saturday, October 19, 2013 @ 9:43 AM

Can anyone explain how they can prove that you have been in Spain for over 183 days?, there are no boarders between Spain & the rest of the EU & passports don't get stamped any more. If they want to check utility bills then you could say that different members of the family were staying in the house free of charge.

Gordon said:
Saturday, October 19, 2013 @ 10:12 AM

I can never understand the attitude of the Spanish authorities. You would think they would encourage wealthy British people to their country who would then spend that wealth in Spanish shops, bars and restaurants. But no, they try their best to put you off buying by bulldozing properties that were declared illegal despite being passed by the local government. Then if you do take the plunge they want to take 10% tax on the purchase price and finally when you arrive they want to tax all your assets regardless of where they are. Sort yourself out Spain!

Kelly said:
Saturday, October 19, 2013 @ 10:23 AM

MR BUDD,
this makes no sense
[Although a different subject, I have moved out of Spain after 7 years because of the 'complementary' tax that Spain is now charging anyone who has purchased within the last 4-5 years. I moved in March 2012 and paid the mandatory 8% purchase tax on the sum agreed for my apartment. About this time last year my solicitor advised me that the tax authorities had re-valued the catastral value to over twice what i paid for the apartment, therefore asking me for the difference in tax....9,500 €. I cant pay this, so basically, my Spanish bank account has been embargoed, and I have been forced to leqve my apartment in spain, and am now living inna rental in the U.K. ]

If you were SELLING after 7 years why did you pay 8% purchase tax?

lenox said:
Saturday, October 19, 2013 @ 10:23 AM

Perhaps we should run this country for them?

kernaghan said:
Saturday, October 19, 2013 @ 10:40 AM

@wodger I was told that you can leave by another EU country though I am not sure about this, they may not stamp your passbook but when checking in for a flight it is recorded

David H said:
Saturday, October 19, 2013 @ 11:24 AM

Don't forget that, regardless of the Modelo 720 declaration, and whether it's a Trojan tax horse, they start taxing your wealth anyway at 700,000Euro, or about 600,000GB pounds per person, plus a property allowance.
So if you and your wife merely sold-up in one of the better-off UK regions and became tax-resident in Spain you could soon be having a bit chipped-off your investments. On the other hand you could remain a UK tax resident and wait for the so called Mansion Tax to come along.
Have a word with Blevins Franks, seeing as they get a mention in the article.

jamesensor said:
Saturday, October 19, 2013 @ 12:39 PM

The Spanish Government is looking for ways to fund its enormous tax deficit. With so many Germans and Britons owning a Spanish property, they become an obvious target. The main difficulty is that because of the difference in tax years and definitions of residence - an average of 3 months over the years will do to make you a British resident - it is possible to end up paying tax in both countries. Whilst taxes like income tax can be offset by what you have paid in the ther country, this does not work where the UK has no similar tax. Obviously the collection of data regarding assets is designed to be used for charging a tax on assets or wealth. The UK does not have such a tax at this time although it does have death duties and capital gains tax , which are applied to property or shares. So if Spain charges tax on world-wide assets as a fixed percentage, this will be a net loss unrecoverable from the UK.

Spanish police already have records of cars parked at Malaga airport - indicative that the owner may be absent from the country. They can easily check flight and ferry ticket records, where passports must be shown for departures to the UK. It is difficult for them to check cars crossing into France, Portugal or Gibraltar unless they set up cameras, at the frontiers

It would be wise for anyone who spends a lot of time in Spain to start keeping records such as toll tickets or travel tickets that prove when they are absent from the country. You may be sure that the onus will be on the potential taxpayer to prove his/her innocence.

The Spanish police have already created difficulties for Britons living in boats in Spanish marinas.

sue boardman said:
Saturday, October 19, 2013 @ 12:42 PM

Yes especially following the savage increase in tax imposed on my small pension

jamesensor said:
Saturday, October 19, 2013 @ 12:58 PM

Thge Spanish and UK tax systems atre not the same. In the UK you do not have to declare foreign assets such as property or shares held abroad, unless you sell them at a profit. In this case they are declared in the same way that a second property owned in the UK is when sold with a capital gain. Similarly income from rents either in the UK or abroad, is declared. But there is no requirement to disclose assets except when they provide income or capital gain.

Alteapair said:
Saturday, October 19, 2013 @ 1:40 PM

So go home and see how much tax & rates you pay there, and how much more expensive living costs are.

For goodness sake, deal in facts and not prejudice & preconceptions - have you learned nothing from living here?

christos1980 said:
Saturday, October 19, 2013 @ 1:49 PM

A valid reason to go with my original plan, and that is to rent in Spain and keep my assets in the UK and live from them. I get to stay 6 months a year in Spain and the rest in the UK and get to chose Spain in the winter months, best of both worlds I say.

kernaghan said:
Saturday, October 19, 2013 @ 2:09 PM

To be honest without the expats Spain would be cactus

jamesensor said:
Saturday, October 19, 2013 @ 2:49 PM

I do pay both tax and Council tax in the UK, and will continue to do so, as it is impossible to escape the net if you wish to visit for more than 3 months a year. I do not own a property in Spain and have absolutely no intention of ever doing so.

My report is entirely factual, based on direct reports. Many people living more than half a year in Spain seem to be remarkably unaware of what the law might mean for them, in terms of taxes on British property and British bank deposits. Far better to rent and document your absences from Spain.

Amsonline said:
Saturday, October 19, 2013 @ 2:55 PM

Determined to remain non resident, although with house in Uk and in Spain it seems the only winners in this declaration will be the companies advertising and scare mongering, the fact remains: as there are no border controls in mainland Europe, I defy anyone to determine whether i am in France, Belgium, Netherlands, etc., for any amount of time, the only pointer would be internet,although it could not be proven if I use Wi Fi at various public sites. I am fully signed up for Uk taxes but if we joined Spanish system i would be taxed again and then it would be up to me to prove which country should refund! Until all the European government databases can interact it is impossible to keep record in Spain.

christos1980 said:
Saturday, October 19, 2013 @ 4:44 PM

I think many people are unaware if the Spanish, UK or any government come after you for non payment of taxes it is up to you to prove you have been out of the country not up to them to prove this. Mobile phones and debit/credit cards will prove where you have been. Basically if they want you and you are guilty of tax evasion they will prosecute, make no mistake about this. Borders controls or not, it's a very easy job to prove where someone was at a given time. Best to pay the taxes and sleep easy I say. Unless of course you have money to engage a creative accountant, thus avoiding investigation in the first instance.

flimflam said:
Saturday, October 19, 2013 @ 5:10 PM

We've been to a gestor and paid to have everything sorted. We're living here - so we just do what we're supposed to do to stay legal in the system - which I know is more corrupt than most. But we've always been honest and paid our dues - so can't change the habits of a lifetime.

potblack said:
Saturday, October 19, 2013 @ 7:16 PM

Overseas assets. How can they possibly know how many Rolex watches you have or a Picaso painting on your 1 bedroom ex council flat in Mosside? or even a £10 million yacht in the Cayman Islands. All sounds like an unenforceable load of crap dreamt up by some lard arse politician/bureaucracy in Madrid with a big desk and pen full of ink and nothing to write.

Yes there is a case to say be honest, but the powers that be are as bent and corrupt as a 9 bob note.

Chris said:
Saturday, October 19, 2013 @ 8:20 PM

I went to a vector who informed me the tax was only on earnings not savings. Also my house in England would not count because the purchase price was less than 50,000. So he said l didn't need to declare anything.

rita.cowley said:
Saturday, October 19, 2013 @ 8:30 PM

We have left Spain not because of the tax.We are sick of the way people who should know the laws of the county just dont .Love the Spanish people in general.But there are many who just want to miss lead and rob the british people.So unfair the british people love spain let them spend their hard earned money with out trying. to rip them off all the time.We have seen them laughing behind their backs.

Swerve said:
Sunday, October 20, 2013 @ 1:34 AM


Qoute Determined to remain non resident, although with house in Uk and in Spain it seems the only winners in this declaration will be the companies advertising and scare mongering, the fact remains: as there are no border controls in mainland Europe, I defy anyone to determine whether i am in France, Belgium, Netherlands, etc., for any amount of time, the only pointer would be internet,although it could not be proven if I use Wi Fi at various public sites. I am fully signed up for Uk taxes but if we joined Spanish system i would be taxed again and then it would be up to me to prove which country should refund! Until all the European government databases can interact it is impossible to keep record in Spain.


That maybe if you drive to Spain but if you fly that's a different story.
We have been looking into taking a year out in Spain but the 183 day rule
And autonimo fees and private health care costs are very expensive.
As for for overseas assets what has it really got to do with Spain if you have
a property back in the uk or anywhere else for that matter. The next thing
will be a 10% tax on any savings just like what happend in Cyprus.

Jesus said:
Sunday, October 20, 2013 @ 10:03 AM

pot black, you hit the nail on the head, apart from them " having nothing to write"'. Madrid has plenty to write to keep the rent flowing towards them. These people have been corrupt for so long , as in centuries , that it is the norm to create laws that ensure rent flows towards not away from their coffers. This corruption is the norm not the exception.

I am aware that most governments are corrupt and serve their cronies and not their electorate. But has anyone lived in a European country as corrupt as Spain?
I understand that many expats are blissfully unaware of what goes on in the politics and running of this country, preferring like myself to keep the telescope focused on the UK. Easier to understand the news on the BBC after all! Take a read of El Pais once in a while before handing over your hard earned to these people, just to be taxed for a second or third time.

Why is it that Northern Europeans insist on imposing their culture of fare play and honesty on the south? It is this trait that these tax declaration laws play on. Can you imagine Rajoy handing over a cent to the tax man if he never had to. We pay our fair share of taxes and as expats we are the least burden on the state, the majority of us bring our own wealth.

Gibraltar has no reciprocal tax laws with Spain. If you must take " expert advice" ask them how you can make use of this. If this does not suit ask about setting up a limited company in the UK and how this might help. Gold always is a good bet. Allways ask yourself, how is the adviser benefitting from the advice they are giving.

Don't listen to scaremongering that is propagated by those with a self interest in playing on your fear and ignorance. You will not sleep better wondering when your meager pension fund will be taxed ( at value not at what you can take out) or when you children's inheritance will be plundered.

Spain is a fantastic country to live in, you can't beat the weather and as the crisis deapens, you can even get acknowledged as you enter a business premises.

jamesensor said:
Sunday, October 20, 2013 @ 10:04 AM

All European countries are chasing foreigners who live in their country but do not contribute to the cost of Government. In Britain it is EU benefit tourists who are the target. In Spain it is British and Germans who live there without paying tax. As Spain taxes assets on an annual basis, anyone who becomes a resident will be expected to pay tax on property or other assets in the UK.

This is why in many Meditteranean countries people put their money into gold bars and register their yachts under flags of convenience from British tax havens.

Once the police start a criminal investigation for tax evasion, you may be surprised at how much evidence they can come up with.

JCM said:
Sunday, October 20, 2013 @ 2:47 PM

We complied with the declaration as we were concerned about the consequences but nobody else I know did, they refused as they were convinced the Spanish will eventually tax them on their UK assets.I have been here for many years and have always been legal and paid my taxes in Spain but I will be going back to UK as soon as I can sell my house here mainly because of the draconian tax system for self employed. Nobody who wants to earn say just 10 to 15K a year as self employed can meet the social security payments(300+ a month) accountants (90 a month), 21% IVA and income tax. I won't work illegally so it's back to the UK for me

jamesensor said:
Tuesday, October 22, 2013 @ 2:54 PM

Sorry to bring more bad news. But Angela Merkel is talking about forcing euro bail-out countries to impose a wealth tax on residents to help pay for their bail out. This is because previous efforts to make holders of government bonds or in Cyprus savers pay have had the predictable effect of driving money, away.

Only three EU countries currently tax wealth.

France wealth over €800,000 from 0.55% rising to 1.8%
Spain wealth over €700,000 from 0.5% rising to 2.5%
Netherlands 1.2% on investment and cash assets over €21,000

There are considerable wealth disparities across the EU. It is unclear whether the following figures for household wealth include pension savings.

Spain average wealth €291,400
Germany average wealth €195,200.
Cyprus average wealth €671,000
UK average wealth €400,000

Merkel has rejected a wealth tax for Germany, but her coalition partners - either Greens or SPD favour it. Cypriot wealth is mostly black money deposits from Russians. This has probably already fled.

The EU rule on wealth taxes is that you must pay the tax on all your assets in the country in which you are resident for tax.

Sonia said:
Saturday, January 18, 2014 @ 8:11 PM

I am approaching retirement age and my plan for many years has been to retire to Spain, as I love it so. Feeling very, very sad that this cannot be an option for me now due to this tax. I have worked hard, just an ordinary person, not a millionaire, but my assets would be enough to be affected. Perhaps Portugal will be kinder to us Brits!

jamesensor said:
Sunday, January 19, 2014 @ 12:25 PM

The politicians in Portugal have so far made no mention of a wealth tax. What the country is doing instead is cracking down hard on anyone who has become a resident of Portugal, by living there for over six months in any calendar year, but still drives a car with UK number plate. Such cars are deliberately targetted in road traps. We were stopped twice within three days near Setubal even though our car is a 20 year old Mercedes.

The fines can be as high as €15,000 for having a foreign registered car or boat, once you have become Portuguese resident. There are also heavy fines for speeding, for driving in flip-flops, for driving with purchases in the car, without a VAT receipt, and for parking on the side of the road (eg left) facing oncoming traffic. Whilst Portugese and foreigners face the same penalties, it is mostly the foreigners who are fined because they do not know about some of these obscure laws.

Whilst I would not claim that the Portuguese GNR are as aggressive as the Guardia Civil in Spain, they are quite prepared to waste an hour of your time, even on successive days. Amongst their suspicions were that we speak Portuguese and were carrying tools, obviously old, in the car. We escaped suspicion only when we showed Cape Verde visas in our passports.

As the economy gets steadily worse, some bright spark may have the idea of taxing foreigners through eg a wealth tax on world-wide assets.

kernaghan said:
Sunday, January 19, 2014 @ 10:21 PM

I can't see anything wrong with having to register your car and boat if you are a Portugese resident most countries would expect that, in Australia moving to another state requires licence and rego to be transferred . We also get fined for parking incorrectly and wearing flip flops whilst driving is not allowed though it is more if you are involved in an accident that you may be fined.
It's all about revenue now the latest ridiculous fine was for leaving a car window open by 5cm on your own property as it may encourage thieves to commit a crime, this was in the middle of the day where the temp hit 45cm.
Doesn't the UK tax you on overseas assests, if so I can't see why you would expect Spain to be a tax haven.

christos1980 said:
Monday, January 20, 2014 @ 12:17 AM

This is just the beginning - once you declare your savings this will eventually lead to heavier taxation. Governments are working hard now trying to bring in more revenue through taxation. Again it's the little man that pays, so no change there. We must look after the 1% musn't we? Many pensioners I am sure went to live the last part of their life in Spain and kept a little "nestegg" to ensure they were financially stable should the worst happen. And why not, they probably worked all there lives and saved and paid taxes on their earnings. Tax upon tax upon tax is the name of the game today. In the UK we are left with a measly 22% disposable income after direct and indirect taxation, and that is getting worse each year. Who knows what they will do with the Brits in Spain who declare savings, but i would bet sooner or later they will have to part with some of their hard earned cash.

jamesensor said:
Monday, January 20, 2014 @ 9:14 AM

As I have already said, the UK does not tax on overseas assets with a wealth tax. It taxes on capital gains for a second home and on shares and it levies death duties if someone dies without having passed on his fortune some years ahead. For the first time the UK is now going to levy capital gains taxes on foreigners who have an UK home, but are normally resident abroad. In this it is just catching up with countries like France.

With some taxes, the normal EU double taxation agreements prevent anyone from being taxed twice. It is possible to offset taxes paid in one country with taxes claimed in another. But the wealth taxes in Spain, France and the Netherlands have no UK counterpart, so it is a direct, unrecoverable cost. Significantly Gibraltar does not have a double taxation agreement with Spain.

Of course, it is against the law in every country to have a car or boat registered in another country from the one in whioch you are resident. The problemm is that many foreigners in both Spain and Portugal are unaware of this and the very vicious fines come as a considerable shock.

I should say that most of the people who break this law in Portugal are Portuguese citizens. I have seen many boats wrongly flying the red ensign and quite a few driving cars with Spanish number plates.

Kernaghan said:
Monday, January 20, 2014 @ 9:46 AM

No excuse for ignorance

Robert said:
Thursday, January 23, 2014 @ 9:20 AM

Worldwide Assets have to be declared in all EU countries - decisions to move around are not taken because of that, but maybe taken because of where income tax rates are lowest. Strangely there are very few 'creative accounting' firms which operate with knowledge of the different countries under one roof - or perhaps they just don't advertise their presence?

jamesensor said:
Thursday, January 23, 2014 @ 10:52 AM

Clearly where you decide to become resident only affects your tax payments on assets if that country taxes wealth. Currently only France and Spain do that. The problem for many retired Britons is precisely that their wealth appears to be considerable, whilst their income from pensions or interest on savings may be small.

So the wealth tax can and should play a major role in such retirment planning. You are quite right that there are few tax advisors who are expert in the rules in more than one country. But perhas a British tax accountant , resident in Spain would be able to help with the calculations.

Louise said:
Wednesday, February 10, 2016 @ 12:53 AM

I was all set to sell up in the UK and live in Spain. I'd started to look at renting in areas of interest for a while to get a feel of where I wanted to buy.

My income is now purely from residential property that I own and rent out in the UK. My 2 places are in a part of London that has had the % price increase. They're not exactly Mayfair, but pro rata they have thankfully done well. Rents generally don't match the same % increase as sales but they provide a comfortable, normal income for me.

I have never set out to evade any tax that I owe. I didn't want to move to Spain to evade any such tax payments either. When I found out the facts about Spain's wealth tax I was gutted. It doesn't take into account how much cash you earn at all from what I have read. Instead, in addition to what you pay in income tax you pay a set % of what your assets worldwide are worth every year. The Spanish Gov't caps this at 60% of your earnings. If they didn't, it could mean that I'd be in the ludicrous situation of owing more in tax, under Spanish tax law than I actually earn with the addition of the wealth tax, crazy huh! At 60% taken I wouldn't be able to live on what would be left anyway so it's sadly a no brainer. I cannot live in Spain.

I find it rather underhand that they abolished it, then brought it back several years later. My heart goes out to people whose lives have been financially ruined by it.

It makes no sense to me to do this to people, especially in a country like Spain where money spent in the country would benefit the ecomomy & jobs. I can tell people now that this does not happen in the UK. Ed Milliband was seemingly in favour of imposing a "mansion tax" but thankfully it never became reality & people spoke about how ridiculous it was. You only pay tax on your income, savings interest & the usual capital gains etc.