AEAT Capital Gains Tax Demand

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27 Apr 2013 12:11 by taxicab Star rating. 8 posts Send private message

Hi,

In 2002 I bought a property in Andalucía for 60.000 €. I sold it cheaply in 2011 for 55.000 € and used the proceeds to help finance another property in Andalucia. I requested a refund of the 3% retention in June 2011.

My lawyer has just received a 'notification' letter and valuation document from the AEAT. They state that the sold property was worth 111.280 € in 2011 therefore they are keeping the 1.650 € 3% retention and are demanding another 6.135 € from me in Capital Gains Tax.

I discovered last week that in 2012 the Spanish buyer was forced to pay an extra 6.650 € (7% purchase tax) as they valued the same property at 150.000 €. Even the notary who presided over the purchase testified that no 'black money' was involved and the deed price of 55.000 € was the real price. The buyer still had to pay 6.650 €.

When I enter the relevant information into this website

I have just been prevented from entering this website address by Eye on Spain but if you enter ' Junta de Andalucia val Urbana ' in Google you should find it.

The sold property is valued at 148.000 € in 2011. ( This is a good tool to find out the 'official' valuation of Spanish property. Sell for less and the AEAT may investigate )

I am considering appealing against this demand but my lawyer informs me that I will have to pay 500 € for a second valuation. If this valuation is over 10% less than the 111.000 € valuation in my AEAT tax demand then a 3rd, more expensive valuation will be required. Plus legal fees this could amount to another 2.000 € with no guarantee from my lawyer that the AEAT will lower their original demand of 6.135 €.

My question for discussion is this:

If I go ahead with an appeal and bearing in mind that two other valuations apply to the property 1) 150.000 € on the buyer's AEAT notification letter and 2) 148.000 € on the Junta website, could the AEAT actually raise my valuation of 111.280 € on appeal and thus demand even more CGT?

Kind Regards




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27 Apr 2013 13:22 by baz1946 Star rating. 2179 posts Send private message

So what your saying is then even if your house had gone up in value to the AEAT valuation of 111,280€ ish,  and you marketed it at this price, had no buyers in the whole time it was up for sale,  dropped it down in price, or took the only offer you have had which say was the 55.000€ you sold at due to circumstances,  you would still have to pay the tax, just because it was valued at a higher price...but could never sell at that price.

Going to make a large tax problem of the ones for sale at 1,500,000€ who take an offer for say 3/4 mill€.

What is it with the tax office, are they estate agents and house value's now then. Best we all stick to fiddling tax's.





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27 Apr 2013 13:35 by Poppyseed Star rating. 898 posts Send private message

More state sponsored extortion called Tax................



_______________________

Poppyseed




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27 Apr 2013 13:57 by taxicab Star rating. 8 posts Send private message

Thanks Baz and Poppyseed for your comments.

The AEAT valuation that was sent to me along with the tax demand was compiled by a 'technico'. It is 43 pages long and over half of them are full of downloads of similar properties to the one I sold from fotocasa website. They are all at 'fairy story' prices but the valuer seems to have based her valuation on them not on the reality of the Spanish real estate in early 2011. Even the estate agent who sold the property said that 55.000 € was a decent price due to the 'crisis'.

I realise that things are tough in Spain at the moment but.....



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27 Apr 2013 14:30 by camposol Star rating in Camposol. 1411 posts Send private message

Why don't the Hacienda have an up to date list of property values?

Why don't they accept proof that the property value wasn't underdeclared?

I realise this so called complementary tax came about because of years of under declaring, bit  decent honest people are being penalised, and nothing is being done about it.Is is robbery, no wonder people are being put off buying in Spain.





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27 Apr 2013 14:49 by taxicab Star rating. 8 posts Send private message

My wife and I used the money from the 55.000 € property to part fund a 'place in the sun' in which to retire in a few years time. Now we are going to sell it because who knows what other demands the AEAT might dream up in the future. With limited funds in retirement how could we pay them? Then they may take our house away in lieu of payment.

I realise that this may sound crazy and paranoid, but up until recently I've trusted Spain and it's system of Goverment, it's a beautiful country which I loved since I was a young man. Now I cannot say this and we can't wait to cut all ties.



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27 Apr 2013 16:02 by camposol Star rating in Camposol. 1411 posts Send private message

What annoys me is that people are advised to put some money aside for this complementary tax; Instead the Hacienda should be changing its stance on this and accepting proof that money hasn't been passed under the table.





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27 Apr 2013 16:35 by taxicab Star rating. 8 posts Send private message

I asked my lawyer in an e-mail 1)is the Hacienda calling me a liar (because I have witnesses to the 55.000 € handshake) or 2) have they made up their minds to charge me more and nothing will change their mind? He answered that 2) is correct.

Yesterday I e-mailed a letter to the European Commision because I am so infuriated by how unjustly the AEAT treat European Citizens. This is my first time ever on a forum and last week my Spanish lawyer told me that I was the first seller that had received a complementary letter that he knew of. Plenty of buyers but no sellers. Thing is, in 60 years I've never really complained officially about anything. This has given me the 'right 'ump'.



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27 Apr 2013 17:14 by baz1946 Star rating. 2179 posts Send private message

This is a disgusting way that Spain with all the problems it has is working, and i thought that the UK had the monopoly on sneaky tricks when it came to underhand tax issues, someone has to say to Spain that if your house is advertised at X minimum amount of euros, that you the tax people say the value is, and you still get no lookers or offers, and you cannot afford to run the house any longer.......What the hell do i do....Reduce the price so i lose money, but it sells....And still have to pay you taxes, as well as the buyer, paying because he bought my house.

This i think should go further, like the EU, i would even consider writing to Spain's King, why not? write to every newspaper in Spain and England, even go so far as the TV people...Who knows what might happen, after all the media loves bad news and dishing the dirt on someone else, tell them whats happened, and what Spain is doing, make sure you let the authorities in Spain know you are doing this as well, i would send Spain's tax people every copy of every letter / email i sent out. 

Two people i know had a similar, but different thing happen to them some years back here in the UK, they swapped farms, one wanted a bigger one, one wanted a smaller one, a slice of disclosed legal money went through the books, but the Inland Revenue then said it was done this way to avoid stamp duty and duly tried to charge them stamp duty, with the added threat of court action, the two took on the Inland Revenue through the courts and won the day...No stamp duty paid, the Tax man paid all costs.......Well rather we did.





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27 Apr 2013 19:16 by mrpidman Star rating. 16 posts Send private message

Can anyone tell me how the tax is calculated? I have looked at a property marketed at 130k now down at 110k and realistically may sell at 90-100k. If I wanted to make an offer, can I find out beforehand how much I will be expected to pay if I buy?

 

Thanks in anticipation.





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27 Apr 2013 19:57 by taxicab Star rating. 8 posts Send private message

If the property is in Andalucia search for Junta de Andalucia val Urbana on google. EOS will not allow me to enter the website address. Enter a date, province and town then the valor catastral (rateable value). You'll have to get this from the owner, it's on their IBI bill (council tax). The figure that comes up is the minimum figure that the tax office will accept. So, in your example, the asking price of 130.000 € that you quote maybe the same as the website valuation. If you buy it for 90.000 € the purchase tax will be at 8% = 7.200 €. The tax office however have four years in which to sniff around so they will charge you another 8% of 40.000 € = 3,200 €. They eventually want at least 8% of whatever the figure is in the website above. If the figure that you pay is above the website figure you will have to pay the purchase tax on the greater figure. I would strongly advise you to discuss this with your Spanish lawyer and let him know that you need to know all about the complementary tax. If you put the money away for 4 years you might only get a whiff of interest on it but at least you won't get a shock when the bill comes. If after 4 years they haven't got round to you (fat chance) then check out with your lawyer if the coast is clear then you can treat yourself, your wife and kids to an ice cream.



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27 Apr 2013 20:25 by mrpidman Star rating. 16 posts Send private message

Very helpful Taxicab. Thank you.





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28 Apr 2013 13:05 by formentera costa Star rating. 369 posts Send private message

hi,

i have just sold a property in the alicante province.

can anyone tell me a website where i can look to see

what my previous property could be valued at as it was

sold cheaply to get it off our hands

hate to think that we will eventually be getting a demand for

capital gains tax.



_______________________

coolyes




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28 Apr 2013 13:52 by taxicab Star rating. 8 posts Send private message


Hi Formentera Costa

I've just looked around and found a site but EOS won't let me enter it here so try entering in google

'Junta de valencia valor urbana' then top of the list should be 'cálculo del valour de bienes urbanos'.

Click on that site and enter your details and you'll get the information you want.

Be Lucky



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28 Apr 2013 18:23 by formentera costa Star rating. 369 posts Send private message

thanks taxicab, will give it a try



_______________________

coolyes




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28 Apr 2013 18:38 by formentera costa Star rating. 369 posts Send private message

hi taxicab,

have tried it but when i click on calculo del valor de bienes urbana and

put the information in it only shows the amount of the suma to pay whic

i already know.

what i am wanting is to try and find out what the price that my apartment

would be for capital gains tax



_______________________

coolyes




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28 Apr 2013 19:40 by taxicab Star rating. 8 posts Send private message

On the web page headed Cálculo del valor de referencia de bienes urbanos if you enter the valor catastral as 100000 the figure for the taxman to work on is 300000. That was for the municipio of Adsubia because it's alphabetical. All of the municipio mutiplication rates are different (in Andalucía) . It depends on when the local council did the valor catastral figures.

Hope it works for you. If not, let me know what municipio in Alicante your property is in, when you sold it and the valor catastral and I'll see if it works in the webpage that I'm looking at.

Be Lucky



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29 Sep 2013 19:05 by litldevil Star rating. 2 posts Send private message

I've read his thread with interest as we are just about to go to Notary.  The house we are buying has never been registered or had an IBI bill. I was aware that the back tax for IBI could be applied for and would be payable by the seller but as it is in the Alicante region I looked at the link provided but obviously cannot include a catastral value ( as we dont yet have it)  I know the land has been measured and the house now plotted, we are due to move to Spain in 9 days and this has me significantly worried.  We are buying at 115,000. If I put this in as the catastral value the tax figure comes up at 368,000.  Does this mean we could be liable for 7% of  this figure?   





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30 Sep 2013 13:29 by camposol Star rating in Camposol. 1411 posts Send private message

The catastral value is normally much less than the price it is sold for, so I can't understand that huge amount!





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30 Sep 2013 13:52 by litldevil Star rating. 2 posts Send private message

So potnetially as catastral have been out to define boundaries, document the house and add it to the records we shouldn't have to pay a huge back tax later down the line?  We know there will be 4 years back tax of IBI due which the seller will pay but the addtional transfer tax was the worrying thing.





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