| The Comments |
I do understand that Goodstich, but I think many, for whatever reason, have not been fully aware of the facts, and the media portraying us as a bunch of moaning minnies who were stupid to attempt to buy in the first place (we-left-our-brains-at-the-airport stuff) is another myth that needs dispelling.
Of course there will be some that fall under this category, but in the main, much of this injustice is being suffered by those who thought (wrongly) that a Spanish system was in place to protect from abuse if ever the need arose. Most notably those buying offplan who were given reassurances that Bank Guarantees were in place for that very purpose. Now in hindsight we know differently, hence the need to forewarn others. False marketing, abusive contracts, unregulated banks, ongoing failure to implement successful judgements and provide recompense in a timely fashion, corruption and collusion, etc all need to be identified.
But we should also not lose sight either of all those who are suffering land/ illegal build issues, as this too needs to be fairly reported, and the myths dispelled. Only when the true facts are accurately presented and reported (no media hype but factual detail), will we ever make headway.
But I still say the bottom line is accountability and a Spanish justice system that adequately protects consumers. The continuing risks have to be identified for those who wish to invest in Spain. There is still much ignorance to the realities of unaccountability in Spain. And this is where it gets contentious, as all too often we face denials, or makeshift solutions that do little to solve the underlying problems. Papering over the issues will solve nothing.
A starting point is to provide recompense to those who have been waiting YEARS for justice according to their judgements, and as Keith has identified, for the Banks to be made accountable. To provide fair and adequate compensation to those abused by retrospective laws that have denied innocent people of their rights/homes etc.
I still live in hope that justice will prevail, but the problem still remains as to how long this will take and how in the interim those already financially compromised can afford the luxury to defend their rights. Hence the call for no win, no fee (supported by a workable justice system that provides adequate time constraints in place to make this feasible).
Faro has also made some informed suggestions for Spanish law societies to reform and build confidence in its members and member firm. So much is possible if the will and determination to correct these obvious problems was forthcoming. But that's another debate!
Stay strong everyone and PLEASE support the petitions.
http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/stop-the-spanish-property-roadshow-open-letter-to-davi.html
www.bankguaranteesinspain.com
www.almanzora-au.org
This message was last edited by ads on 20/05/2011. This message was last edited by ads on 20/05/2011.
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The extracts from posts below are what made me suspicious and think there was another agenda here, and also the pm asking if I'd lost a lot of money. Today I received another pm with the following link http://uk.prweb.com/releases/2010/10/prweb4653954.htm with an email address. People can make their own minds up.
If I am wrong of course I apologise but to quote Campana " On this and on any forum people are entitled to an opinion, and to offer help and suggestions. " Nor is it paranoia, with what has gone on and continues to go on I would feel 'caution' is the better description, something which many people say the victims failed to use, now we are we are called paranoid!
I am sure those fighting for justice have explored every way and means to be reunited with their dosh and if there was a way they would have found it!
I continue my unreserved support for all those fighting for justice.
"Those that had a wise head and bought property through a reputable Lawyer and had a bank guarantee have had and can get all their money back, even if the guarantee is out of date."
"there are several firms of lawyers in the Murcia area that have been very successful in the Murcia area at getting clients money back through bank guarantees regardless of expiry dates and regardless of them being in clients hands."
" there really is a way that people can get there money back. i have friends and people i have met on other bloggs that have happily been re united with their dosh."
"There are ways and means, as you say. Crusades are great and glorious, and tilting at windmills might be invigorating for a while, but it is true that there are people out there who have got their money back. "
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Poppyseed
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Poopyseed
yes, I think you have sussed that one. With so much doubt about the Spanish justice system, if any Lawyers really wanted to show any new confidence in the current system, they would work on some sort of no-win no-fee idea for clear cut cases to prove the justice system could be trusted?.
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It's O.K. everyone.
Only recently I had a phone call from a friend to give me the good news he had got his deposit back, I think it was around 40.000 Euro. Sure, it took quite a while, certainly well over 18 months. He had in fact become rather resigned to never recovering the money, but I told him not to just give up, and to find himself a lawyer in the area (useless correspondence and phone calls with the developer's office had not got him anywhere). Anyhow, it worked out well for him, and it does prove that not everyuone is crooked.
You know, my husband used to laughingly call our home in Spain "the Consulate". Friends visiting Spain, and their friends, would often turn to us for some advice, or maybe just a different slant on an issue, not always property-related. We did have some great brain-storming parties, I remember.
People must eventually make up their own minds, and some will plough ahead anyhow regardless of warnings. I am glad to have been of help to those who over the years have come back and said to me: "Thank goodness we listened to you that time." Usually they add: "How did you know?" Heh heh. That would be telling....
Patricia
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Dear poppyseed. Did you not ask me to send you the link? I thought you sent me a private message to send it to you? In my business there are many associates that have bought in Spain. Many of them took advantage of the cash discounts. They are still in the proverbial some 5 years later. Some of these are good friends so it's very close to home. Like anything the more you know the more you learn and the closer to solutions you get. I have my houses in Spain and all mine are legal and owned. Because I was very careful not to be attracted by the dark side! I have helped several friends to get their money back because I speak Spanish and have built up some useful contacts they they have dealt with. I gain nothing from it and sometimes I get involved and wish I hadn't. But it drives me mad that people moan about there losses when they are to blame. Handing over cash is not clever and the sooner people stop moaning the better. I love Spain and I have a healthy respect for their justice system. But do you really think that the Spanish government will get you out of your own mess? In the UK if you handed over money to a builder and he went bust would your write to our government and ask for them to help with your loss? I can imagine that you wouldn't even get a reply. All I have done is to pass on a link which is just as Ruth has done. Ruth wants you all to sign a petition. Great. I hope everyone signs and I hope that you get something from it. I can't see how anything will come of it but I'm not a lawyer. My links area ones that could help people that have given up with a real chance of seeing something. But you decide. It's not my money. What I find strange is your tone of reply. If you feel you don't want to read the link or follow it through, then don't. How can it be a con? When you bought poppyseed, what did you do to secure your deposits and to make sure the contracts were fair? Perhaps your experience on how to secure things would be more useful to those buying in the future? You could be an example to all those about to buy. Wouldntd that be worth something. Your experience could be productive and that could help, because I don't think you will find help from the government. Now I have found the link to the article I will post it. Read it at your peril. It might actually help
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campana
well how about 9 years in June since putting the deposit down, and that includes a court win following a two year court delay!!
It's not just about the lawyers, it doesn't matter how well they do their job when the courts cheat you out of the money they have granted you. The Spanish justice system is not trustworthy, it's a lottery depending on many things including the courts work load and the credability of a judge which in Spain is often in question. Spain's justice system is often little more than a farce and can't be relied on in the way we take for granted in the UK. Until changes are made, that is the situation and the reality for many of us. Even a court win in Spain often means nothing because the system isn't there to back it up, so people are left with nothing!
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I'll risk it and say that "Abitare" again makes some very good points.
And could I just add that I too was able to sometimes help people because I can speak and write Spanish (indeed I would say it is almost my first language now).
And sometimes, (infrequently), you don't get much thanks for your help. There can be a "kill the messenger" element.
And I have never got a cent either for giving help or advice, nor would I ask for such a thing. Friends are there to help, when they can.
I also sincerely hope you get something out of the petition. I really do. It is also important to be realistic.
All the best to everyone
Patricia
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Poppyseed when I took a look at that site it stated
"Normally, when you try to connect securely,
sites will present trusted identification to prove that you are
going to the right place. However, this site's identity can't be verified.
What Should I Do?
If you usually connect to this site without problems, this error could mean that someone is
trying to impersonate the site, and you shouldn't continue. "
This message was last edited by ads on 20/05/2011.
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Good stitch, 9 years is some time. Did you get a bank guarantee? Did you transfer money to the builder or the bank or was it cash? There are some cases now that have been won where a transfer to a special or normal account has been made. If it's cash then it's that much more difficult. It's the banks that are proving to be the win here. Has your lawyer tried everything.
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Abitare I did not ask for the link, I did not reply to your first pm and today received another pm from you with the link.
I do not think most of the people on here 'moaning; about losing their deposits are to blame and I have no respect for the Spanish justice system. I think your assumptions of why people are in the mess they are in are flawed and it would appear you are not fully conversant with the problems or you wouldn't make such remarks.
Personally I did not lose any money but the purchase was fraught and I did get some insight into how it would feel to lose money it took a lifetime to accrue, I can only describe it as terror and my world caved in for a few days until the issues were resolved. The longest 3 days of my life.
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Poppyseed
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Poppyseed, thanks for your continued support and so pleased to hear that you are not affected now, but as you say it is a personal journey for many that is hard to describe.
Nevertheless we all need to stick together and wherever possible help one another each step of the way, and remain supportive to ensure the realities are relayed to all concerned via the petitions and every means at our disposal. Keith and Ruth at present are doing a great deal behind the scenes and we should all be extremely grateful to them.
By the way, just heard back from our local MP in response to my contacting him (with as much updated info as I could) and ironically he's forwarding my latest details to David Lidington, so will keep you all posted if I hear back.
Also written to local MEP after receiving a supportive response and queried if our PM and coalition government are fully aware of the facts........ ignorance is no longer an excuse.
I hope that all reading this thread now appreciate at least some of the complexity to this situation, and that the information provided by Keith and Ruth and Suzanne and all who have assisted along the way helps to clarify the realities.
I hope we can stay united in our efforts.......
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I have just checked and I had a private message from your address asking for the link? Technology eh? I'm glad you got everything straight. Perhaps as I suggest you could share your success with others. I can only speak from experience and I have spoken to probably near on 200 people that have bought in Spain. And in my experience the main reason without exception, has been handing over cash in lieu of discounts. And some of these people were business owners like myself. So called clever people. What I can say, again, is that buying abroad is not like buying in the UK. We need to pack our brains and use what we have to hand. I will also add though that as far as I can see, who wouldn't want to live in Spain? I would encourage all those that ask me to buy their little slice of heaven. But I would advise them to use the same caution and same legal advice as they would seek in the UK.
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http://uk.prweb.com/releases/2010/10/prweb4653954.htm
The lawyers in the above thread, Alonso & Haro were the lawyers i appointed when i bought my properties in Spain. I made my first 2 payments direct to La Caixa and received both those deposits back but the 3rd payment which i sent to Alonso & Haro was then forwarded by them to a different account with Cajamar along with the 4th and 5th payment which i sent directly myself to Cajamar on instructions from Alonso & Haro. I am now faced with a huge battle to get my money back.
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FAO Justin please.
Arbitare says he received a pm from me asking for a link I didn't know existed, if this is the case someone is somehow using my pm facility which I would appreciate you investigating please.
Many thanks.
pff001, your comments speak volumes as do Ads re the security of that particular website! Good Luck.
Need I say more?????? I don't think so.
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Poppyseed
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Poppyseed
yes, you are right sadly. Nothing's to low for some to stoop to is it?
ads
well done for keeping up the pressure. Those who really want change and justice for those cheated are doing a fantastic job through lobbying and petitions, but they still face denial, liars and cheats in positions at all levels where honesty and integrity should be the minimum requirment. The proof is there for all to see, and you really wonder how much longer it can be be denied by those in positions of trust.
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The petition has 972 signatures – probably more as, on occasion, couples have signed as one. I’m very heartened by the response. There is just one week to go (31 May) before I close it and send it to David Lidington.
The petition is directed at one person, and one person only – our Minister for Europe, David Lidington. Any further help you can give it by informing your MP and MEPs about it will strengthen it further. I believe he has overall Ministerial responsibility for looking after British commercial interests in Europe whether of a private individual or of an organisation. There will be people in his department who will have specific briefs to look into concerns that arise.
The petition was designed to make our Government aware of the disapproval of those of us damaged by failed attempts to buy in Spain over the last decade of any further selling of Spanish property through Road Shows sponsored by the Spanish Government.
The petition asks a direct question:
We the undersigned request the Government to revoke any permissions given to Sr. Jose Blanco to promote the purchase of Spanish Property here in the UK, and ask that it be withdrawn immediately until such time as monies are returned under the Spanish Bank Guarantee scheme (specifically drawn up to combat corrupt practices) and until the backlog of court cases are dealt with fairly according to the very excellent laws of Spain.
The petition highlights those two areas of concern which, if concentrated on and corrected, would bring relief to many who are still suffering from bad practice within the business and operation of property buying and selling in Spain. It is asking David Lidington personally to put his shoulder to our wheel in raising the profile of this thrust.
Please give your support.
http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/stop-the-spanish-property-roadshow-open-letter-to-davi.html
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ruth
getting close a 1,000 signatures now.
Considering how many just walked away and don't want anything more to do with the lies and injustice because the stress and anger is to much, I really wonder what the true number cheated amounts to?. Can the 1000 + signatures on this petition alone really be ignored, I don't think so?. I feel we need to press for a timescale for answers though, otherwise all we could have at best is more well meant words intended to shut us up for a while.
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Goodstich
A 1000 is a signifient amout
I really hope that those affected are being proactive and not just walking away
From a well wishing supporter i know if it was me i just couldn't
Stick in there
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David W
thanks, and a huge thanks to those like Keith, Suzanne, Ruth, ads etc who are doing so much more than the rest of us to bring about justice and change. I can't walk away even after 9 years, but I do sympathise wish those who say they have had to draw a line under it and move on for their own sanity. It's getting harder all the time to have faith in believing that what we know is right will lead to justice.
http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/stop-the-spanish-property-roadshow-open-letter-to-davi.html
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For anyone who can understand Spanish, there is an interesting article in El Mundo. It seems that the protests were noticed and the Spanish politicians are at least bringing up the subject. It appears the oppositon are criticising Blanco as embarrassing Spain by doing the property tour in the UK when thousand of British feel swindled by Spain.
http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2011/05/24/suvivienda/1306251936.html
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