Spanish bull fighting

 Hi, I'm a Spanish student in Chicago.

For a project, I was wondering what people's views were on Spanish bull fighting.

Any information on whether you agree/disagree would be good. 

Thanks!

Hi Bankedup

I feel that how can we criticise the Spanish culture, when in the UK we have foxhunting & dogfighting etc. Before we can criticise we should put our own house in order. I suppose after a bull as be killed it get's eaten , where as foxes and dogs are just left to rot! 

Hi Bankedup

I think that bull fighting is at last being recognised as what it is, hideous cruelty and torment against a confused animal for human enjoyment, in the name of tradition. I feel everyone has the right to criticise it.  It saddens me that anyone could get pleasure from watching any creature going through that terrible suffering. Of course some will deny that the creature suffers, or that it's suffering is a noble act etc. I think that sort of denial speaks for itself!!

In the UK, we have come to a similar conclusion about fox hunting thankfully. I think if it hadn't been a past time of mainly the wealthy and right wing, then it to would have been banned long ago.  Other cruel past times like dog fighting, cock fighting etc, (working class) were banned long ago, but still go on behind closed doors, but at least they are now seen by most decent people, like fox hunting, as cruel and cowardice acts by those who have no real feeling for animal suffering

If animals need to be controlled because they are vermin, or slaughtered for food, then fair enough, they should be killed in as humane a way as possible, but I don't feel killing for our own pleasure??, can ever really be justified. I come from a farming/shooting background and I know there are ways of killing an animal that involve far less cruelty than is often sadly called 'tradition'. 

Oscar Wilde's comment on fox hunting sums it up well I feel  ......'' the unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible''

Goodstitch about sums it up for me!

Completely agree with Goodstich (saved me typing it all)! What really annoys me is those who say it's 'traditional'. Lots of horrible things in the world were once traditional but thank God they're not now. This sort of cruelty can never be acceptable for any reason.

Equality for all animals and humans and insects and fish and etc.etc..

Give the bulls the vote. Stop bullfighting and then give them unemployment benefits.

What a load of bullocks!

Thanks for all your input!!

I guess another question could be, do the people from Spain see bullfighting as cruel and torturous too?

Because, I've only seen videos of bullfighting and heard about the "popularity" of it in Mexico, but it seems that that have quite a large crowd every time they have one. I guess what I'm asking is, is it more seen as a--for lack of better words--a "sport/tradition" in Spain?

I went to Mexico last summer, and when we passed by the bull fighting "ring" there seemed to be a very large crowd of people there watching. I asked my friend who lives in Mexico if he'd ever been to one. He told me that he has been to a few but he'd never recommend it because it was just sad to watch. I know even people in Spanish speaking countries with this "tradition" have mixed views on this topic.

But, like I was asking, do the majority of people in Spain see it more of a tradition rather than a cruel show?
Also, I know that some people would like to argue that this tradition is very cultural (obviously not seen throughout the world) and it allows the bull to die in "honor" rather than just in a butchery. What are your views on that?

Hi Bankedup ,

My wife is Spanish and  I asked her for her veiw on the matter,

She thinks its cruel and indeed in some parts of Spain it has been banned such as  Barcelona

No its not Sport BUT  a Tradition that goes back many many years and although Spain is changed its part of a lot of Spanish both old and young"s lives,

There  are still many people employed in this "sport " not the thousands of the 50"s and 60"s that even today are seen as "film star " status their pictures adorn many Restaraunts and Tapas bars but a dwindleing Traditon that will eventually be only in small pockets of Spain mainly in the South

From her veiw the older the person is the fonder the memory is, the under 20"s are indifferent they have music untold vidio games etc , bull fighting is on TV  but if they have the tv control button it would be turned over pretty quick not because they dont like it but just because they would prefer to watch something else

Regards

I think Spanish bull fighting is a great way to represent Spain. But some may argue that it's cruel. I have nothing against those people's opinions.

Bankedup, you suggest: "it allows the bull to die in "honor" rather than just in a butchery."

This is illogical because without bullfighting the animal wouldn't have been bred in the first place, so it couldn't have met its end in a butchery. btw bullfights are definitely not banned in Barcelona.  Spanish friends do not regard it as "bullfighting", ie the matador is not "fighting" the bull. He is seen as more like dancing with the bull. (wry grin from Brits, dancing?...yeah, right) It is not considered a sport, and you will read about  it on the cultural pages of a newspaper, not the sports pages.

One can't deny the fantastic skills of the horsemen, or the elegance of the matadors - wow! that posture as a ton of bull whizzes by a whisker's distance away.

Sunrise

I don't think the fact that's it's cruel is even in question?  Pushing sharp objects in to the flesh of a confused and angered animal until it's crippled so much it can no longer stand, that alone fight back speaks for itself!!

If you find that suffering acceptable in the name of tradition, then I guess the argument for banning it is lost on you, as it is the others in favour.

Guy T

as you say, one can't deny the fantastic skills, and as a traditional spectacle I can see the attraction as I can in foxhunting. What I feel we must accept though as decent human beings is that animals suffering purely for our pleasure is in no way acceptable. I think the options we have is either banning it completely if the hideous cruelty aspect can't be changed, or letting bull fighting go ahead without the the bull suffering a slow and painfull death??.   Same with fox hunting, a simple muzzle on the dogs, would allow the spectacle to go ahead without the hideous cruelty at the end. The trapped fox could still be humanely killed if need be.

Some might consider that the bull or the fox would  still put through much torment for human pleasure, and that in itself is not acceptable?, and I think that's a fair opinion, but perhaps we have to reach some comprimise for jobs, or tradtion?, or the the whole thing is just pushed underground as cock fighting/dog fighting has been in the UK.

Hi

Not keen on Bullfighting. Although I believe its up to the Spanish  to stop it. However I really do like to watch the Bull Runs when the Bull gets its chance to have a crack at Human Beings. Now that is a sport I would love to see in the Olympics but only if Politicians are the competitors.

Just my humble views.

Cheers

PS. Theres a few Spanish Builders/Developers I wouldn't mind seeing as competitiors as well!!!!

This message was last edited by Laird Dave of Lochaber on 24/11/2009.

Googstitch44  I respect your opinion.

I wouldn't go to watch bull fighting, all I'm saying is when I think about Spanish traditions, bull fighting is the first thing that comes to me. I wasn't saying anything like 'I love animals dying' or watching them die. All I'm saying is bull fighting is known worldwide to be Spanish and a lot of people know it's a Spanish tradition.

Some like it, some don't. I wouldn't like to see a bull get killed.

I personally agree, that I don't get enjoyment out of animals dying. But, when asked in class about if I would attend a bull fight, I said yes. I, personally, think that its very cultural and like Sunrise said, its the first thing I think of when I think of Spain. 

In no way am I saying that I would get personal enjoyment out of it--but it would definitely be an experience. I don't know, maybe afterwards I would feel completely different and wish that I had not gone, but I would like the experience nonetheless. I guess I can understand both sides of the topic--I understand that its cultural, a tradition...and I can also understand that it is cruel to kill an animal for pleasure (for lack of better words). 

I know it's not the same, but I'm sure that there are differences within other cultures that others see as "I can't believe they do that there!" --not to the extreme of killing an animal in front of hundreds of people--but do you understand my point?

Like I said before, I personally want to experience Spanish culture, such as bull fighting. I guess, I just have to get over the mindset that its weird or crazy...but rather its just different from my culture. 

Whilst I have always opposed this barbaric cruel ritual (I wont dignify it by calling it a sport) my husband was indifferent, Spanish culture and all that rubbish. Until on a visit to Spain he watched one on Spanish TV. He was physically sick and in tears, he could not beleive that this could happen in a civilized world. He was shocked at the way the spears were thrust and twisted in the bull's flesh, the pain inflicted is unimaginable. Traditon or not, culture or not, such cruelty is not acceptable in any civilization. Each country has lots of traditions and culture that do not rely on the obscene torture of a live animal for the glory of the matador.

bankedup

I hear what you are saying, different cultures have different ideas about what is right or wrong, but if we accept that animals in any culture feel pain and suffering in much the same way, then does the culture or tradition make any difference?. I don't think we have to witness cruelty to know it's wrong? Those who go to see it, are supporting it with their money, and that's their right, as long as it's legal........but  does it  make it right to watch an animal suffer dreadful pain and death for human pleasure?

Laird Dave

I think their's many who would agree with you, but I think even that would be to noble for some of the developers/politicians!!

Poppyseed

I felt the same way after watching it on TV. I was so sickened by it, I felt ashamed to be human. I felt no respect for the Matador, but I certainly felt anger and hatred towards him and those who paid to watch an animal bought to it's knees in agony.

Yes but some people (but NOT me!) would want to watch this. Some people are like that (but NOT me!)

i have never watched a bull fight,but what i do like is when they sometimes on the tv show the bull getting the matador

coolrunner,

couldn´t agree more. Great to see when one of those matadors, strutting his stuff, cannot get out of the way of a bull that has already been greatly weakened by the picadors.

Like Corporal Jones used to say in Dad´s Army, "they don´t like it up ém!!!!!"

L.O.L

What do you mean by L.O.L.

What do you mean by L.O.L.

laugh out loud   ´{i got it from my kids who are always texting}

Well, I was told L.O.L. meant "lots of laughs".

I´d snap my fingers too, to show I am with it but the arthritis kicks in!!!

I've been told it meant 'lots of love'

PS. Why did you laugh out loud???

becouse my arthritis stops me clicking my fingers.........no i laughed becouse of the dads army comment

Yes I have to agree the comment is good.

getting back to the thread for a moment!

I wonder as a comprimise, (don't laugh!) if a system could be devised where the bull (without deadly horns) has electronic target areas attached to it that make a noise when the Matador touches them with a harmless sword, likewise the matador has contact areas that sound if the bull makes any contact with clothing or the matadors cloak. That way neither would shed blood, (unless the matador gets trampled?) and the contest could still look much the same from a danger point of view, but be won on points, over a decided time scale.

My guess is, that unless pain and bloodshed is involved, many bull fighting fans wouldn't be interested in the same way as fox hunters wouldn't want their dogs muzzled?. If that's the case, then I think there's no choice but to ban it as unacceptable cruelty?

Saw this somewhere else, it seemed appropriate.

" He who is cruel to animals becomes hard also in his dealings with men. We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals " Immanuel Kant..... philosopher

" Compassion for animals is intimately connected with goodness of character and it may be confidently asserted that he who is cruel to animals is not a good man " Arthur Schopenhour philosopher

" The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judgedby the way its animals are treated ".... Mahatma Gandhi