I am re-posting a piece that first appeared on Eye On Spain last year, having had my description of the experience below as a bureaucratic nightmare questioned in a thread on the Forum. You can judge for yourselves if the paperwork involved in the purchase of a second-hand car in Spain is a nightmare or not:
During the first six months of our new life in Spain every day was coloured by the fact of having that innocuous-looking and yet nervous breakdown-inducing Fiat Uno. Would it break down on the way to school?Would it break down if we left town to go shopping on the coast?I could never have foreseen that a car could cause so much grief and I thought, ‘How come, when they do those lists of the most stressful life events, they don’t include driving cars that no mechanic knows how to fix and which break down regardless of how many times they’ve gone to the garage and despite replacing bits of them left, right and centre every other week?’Whenever we got into it we became quivering wrecks.
Because of this we had decided quite soon after buying it a cost of 2,200 euros, that we wanted shot of it in a part-exchange, with the plan being to buy a new car, and never again get a second-hand car in Spain. But there was a problem. The transfer from the previous owner (not the low-life Les, who was the dealer) hadn’t been processed properly, and it now fell on us to do this. It didn’t matter that we had signed a compraventa, or deed of sale, or that we were the owners of the car’s documents or that we had a receipt for the purchase. We also needed to pay a transfer tax of 60 euros, before being able to part-exchange the car, but it wasn’t enough to just hand over the money. Apparently, there was some papeleo to deal with and these papers had to be handed in in person at the relevant office in Granada.
In the meantime the car constantly thought up new ways of thwarting our plans. At first it didn’t like going downhill. Our local mechanic therefore advised us, after several trips to his garage, to always keep the tank at least half full, as it may have been because the petrol didn’t reach high enough in the tank when the car was facing downhill, to do whatever it is that fuel does. That helped for a week or two. Of course, the car was just lulling us into a false sense of security; pretty soon the car decided it didn’t like going uphill either. It would simply stop. It didn’t matter if it had been running for one minute or one hour. In time, it decided it also liked to stop after going around dangerous bends, so that unsuspecting drivers faced the prospect of turning the bend and slamming into us.
Every time we drove to Granada there was the danger the car would break down en route. The first time, the car spluttered its way up and we got to the Trafico office around 11am. It was located in a big, chaotic and noisy building with open-plan offices relating to various traffic issues set on several floors. We had no idea where we should go, but eventually seemed to be on the right floor. Bewildered people were milling around trying to work out which of the four or five queues they needed to be in and by the time we worked out which was our queue, the time was already ticking away. The person in front of us in the queue told us that everything would come to a stop at 1. 30; even if you’d been waiting several hours, if you hadn’t been seen, you’d have to go through it all again another day.
We got to the counter at about 12. 30,to be told we were in the wrong office; the one we needed was on the other side of the city. By then it was too late as we had to get back to Adreimal for 2pm to pick up the children from school. It took us a fortnight before we managed to steel ourselves for another trip to Granada. We had to feel mentally strong enough to withstand listening and even almost feeling with a sixth sense, that the car was about to break down on the motorway, just as a capricho. There was then the nightmare of parking a million miles away from the right office this time, hopefully, getting lost in the maze of streets several times and finally getting into another stupid, pointless, mind-numbingly unnecessary queue (why couldn’t you just send a bloody cheque through the post?). This time when it was our turn to go to the counter with our little number on a slip, the man casually informed us that we needed a copy of the previous owner’s photo ID before they could effect the official ownership transfer.
Back to Adreimal and the attempt over the next few weeks to track down Les, the charlatan car-dealer, whom we had hoped never to have to see again. There then began a lengthy couple of months trying to get him to get a copy of the previous owner’s photo ID. We couldn’t do it as we had no way of contacting this person. When we finally got the necessary photocopy (more long-distance round trips taking up whole mornings and gallons of petrol), we took it to the second office in Granada only to be told that there were now several other items of documentation required in order to pay the tax. The man presented us with a sheet of paper that was written in the form of a letter. We had to study it carefully, transcribing all of the requirements contained therein, to create our own checklist. ‘So,’ Adrian had said to this funcionario:
‘If we bring everything that is asked for on this document, we can get it sorted?’
‘Si,’ the man replied. Off we went to collect all the little bits and pieces now deemed critical in proving that we had bought the car.
Determined not to miss anything this time, we assiduously gathered everything and two weeks later marched back to the office, brandishing all of the photocopies, IDs, proofs of residence, marriage certificates, last will and testaments etc.
‘Si, that all seems in order,’ the man said, ‘except you don’t seem to have…’He now asked for something else that had not been on the letter (I can’t remember what it was; I’ve blanked it out, as people do who’ve been through major traumatic events). This had been our fourth trip and it was still not over. The man was lucky I didn’t jump over the counter and smack him one.
What a waste of one’s life on this planet, I thought. You move to Spain, thinking you’ll have more quality time. Well we weren’t. I thought of all the pointless, non-productive, expensive (in time and money) nonsense we were being put through. They would make you get a piece of paper and pay a fee for breathing in Spanish air if they could. And when you multiplied this across Spain and saw how it applied to practically every sphere of life, and multiplied it again over the previous umpteen centuries in the past and also into the future, it was sad really. The meaningless of it all.
It was only on the fifth trip, with the extra piece of paper in hand, that we were kindly granted permission to pay the 60 euros purchase tax. We now just had to go back to office number one to present all of the documents once more, together with the proof of the tax we had paid in the second office (obviously, keeping a photocopy of all of this for ourselves in case the idiots lost it all). Miraculously, we managed to do this the same morning, saving ourselves a sixth trip.
Over time we became aware that the people in charge of the many layers of Spanish bureaucracy were obsessed with these buying and selling ‘chains,’ which were meant to prove ownership. A while later when we were to try and sell a property, this illogical obsession and the associated nonsensical demands led to a delay of 12 months in trying to complete on a sale, and in the end the buyer pulled out. Their crazy system was to cost us a fortune, through the loss of the sale before prices plummeted in the recession, so as far as I’m concerned it’s not a harmless little idiosyncrasy of Spain; to me, it borders on the criminal or at least criminally insane. Of course, there are usually little fees sprinkled along the route as you try to get that final priceless document.
The whole thing was Kafkaesque and the nearest I had ever come to madness of this kind was years earlier. Adrian and I had driven across a bridge, without realising we were leaving Germany and entering Switzerland. The Swiss guard on the other end of the bridge was very nice when we said that we didn’t have ID on us and said we should turn back and try the next day with our passports. It was then that we realised we had a problem; driving back across the bridge we came across the German guard who also refused us entry. He insisted on speaking to Adrian who kept saying he didn’t speak German, whilst I tried to explain to him in German what had just happened. He simply refused to let us in.
‘Okay,’ I said in German, ‘we’ll just stay on this bridge forever. ’
At least now that we could declare the car officially ours, we could finally get rid of it. Our morals had prevented us from trying to sell it; it would be a crime to do that to another person. But we figured a part-exchange to a garage was okay, as they’d be making a big profit out of us and they could either fix or scrap the useless bit of metal. We decided to buy a fabulous Suzuki Vitara, which would be able to handle country roads and which, crucially, would have a guarantee. The dealer gave us 600 euros for the Fiat. It would have been more satisfying to set it alight on wasteland and stand over its grave till we were sure it was dead.
And even after all of this, for several years we received letters claiming we were still the owners of the Fiat, trying to get us to pay parking fines and the annual road tax, as the Suzuki garage hadn’t properly transferred it to whomever they sold it to – and this person was running around the city getting into trouble in it. After our letters and ‘phone calls to the dealer achieved nothing, we had to visit them in Granada twice to insist they sort it and get our lawyer to send a letter, or else we would continue to pay the charges associated with the car forever (apparently, this does happen).
Falta un papel (there’s a piece of paper missing):
27 Comments
Gerald said:
09 February 2013 @ 22:03
Oh dear Eggie what a catalogue of mad Spanish beaurocracy. I'm bad enough when I have to return too the embassy once, but five times!!!! No wonder the country is in a mess. And what cost these Government officials, we think the UK is bad, this sounds terrible, almost demonic.
Makes me worry!!
eggcup said:
10 February 2013 @ 13:21
The thing is, you can't really win. You can employ a gestor or solicitor to do every little thing for you, but often you then have to keep pestering them and wish you hadn't put a middle man between you and what you aim to achieve...
Maddiemack said:
10 February 2013 @ 17:35
It took us a while to understand why our Spanish friend's favourite word was and still is 'unbelievable!' The way that Spanish bureaucracy works is just that. Another popular word that was often heard by the local Spaniards whenever they were discussing politics was 'catastrophic!'
Not wrong there, either....
eggcup said:
11 February 2013 @ 10:57
Yes, Maddie. Now that I can look at it objectively, more from the outside, I see not just how crazy it is, but how damaging too. Together with corruption, non-payment of taxes, waste etc., it's one of the things choking the country to death. They even have a profession for dealing with it - the gestores - we don't even have a word for that in English - it would have to be 'the people who do your papers.' Of course, they have also been necessary over the years because of the amount of illiterate people amongst the older generation who had to leave school very young, during Franco's reign of terror. But the average bit of paperwork is so complicated and time-consuming that fully literate people also have to use their services. Unfortunately, we've never found a good one so we've had to do all this excruciating legwork ourselves. I've found that a good solicitor is also very hard to find - they often don't seem to know what they're doing and make it up or work it out as they go along. There. End of moan. Have a good day. Eggie.
MrsCastillo said:
11 February 2013 @ 17:43
Eggcup! I've just finished reading ALL your blog posts in one day (my son is sick and not at school, plenty of time for me to sit in the sofa surfing the web). Hope it doesn't upset you to hear I found it rather depressing. Still entertaining, but in a kind of sad way. Was therefore happy to read in some post that things turned out ok and that you moved from the awful village. Isn't it strange, that some villages are full of nice people and with a good atmosphere, while as other have a whole other feeling to it? Fortunately, we didn't have to buy or rent a place when we got here, as it was already purchased(and without problems,fortunately) . Still, I do also have some stories about CRAZY bureaucrazy, about loneliness and troubles finding friends, about being alone with children in a deserted place...Still, my experience is mostly positive. And after all, I've actually lived in a country 10 times worse than Spain when it comes to corruption and general chaos; Italy. But food was better there. And people generally nicer than in my part of Andalucía (wont say Spain as I've been in very friendly places here as well). So, I guess, as with everything; pros and cons. Keep up your good rythm in posting, Eggcup (love the nick). Besos,
eggcup said:
11 February 2013 @ 18:27
I know this is a site about Spain, Mrs Castillo, but I would be very interested in reading about your experiences in Italy, if you ever feel like writing them down. I haven't found any book like that on the market and there are always similarities between countries that are interesting to explore.
Hey, you're a glutton for punishment reading all my posts in one day. Of course things worked out in the end for me and I'm quite happy where I am in my life now - I am writing about a while ago. It's probably the fact that some time has elapsed that has enabled me to write about difficult experiences. This latest one about the car bureaucracy was a challenge for me though - not only to go through the whole rigmarole, but then to write and re-write it so that it made sense. If anyone finds it boring to read (as I suspect they might), they can pity me for having to experience all that excruciating rubbish first hand... Compared to that, reading about it is small fry. Anyway thanks for the feedback and good luck with your blogging. All the best. Eggie.
MrsCastillo said:
12 February 2013 @ 14:45
Hm...writing down my experiences from Italy...not a bad idea, only problem is time- lived there at the age of 17-18 and 22-24.. And it is, surprisingly enough(for myself), some time ago.. Maybe I'll have to go again? (wait a minute, just have to ask my husband...cariñoooooo...?)
alan talbot said:
16 February 2013 @ 06:48
Hi eggcup,
That is almost as frustrating as banking with Lloydstsb international.
Simular experience with selling a car and having a car stollen.
Sold a car to an English couple who never registered the car in their name but sold it part exchange to a dealer who never registered but sold it on to someone else who never registered it but did park indiscriminatingly meaning fines coming to me, fortunately no problems in the dealer reimbursing me. Even when the guy registered it in is own name ( I actually checked with trafico) I still keep receiving fines because Ayuntomiento de Cordoba have their own records and according to them I still own the car.
The car stolen from me at gunpoint also gained me fines, the Guardia Civil where not interested & so on top of having my car stolen I had to pay fines.
Paul said:
16 February 2013 @ 07:41
And I was thinking of retiring to a small Andalusian country property with land... but experiences like this would be the death of me - the stress would be too much.
It's not difficult to understand how Spain will never be as prosperous and industrious as Say Germany when they have such inefficient and wasteful processes.
I paid my UK Tv licence yesterday - it took me about 25 seconds.
(Honestly). And I renewed my car tax last month in a couple of minutes without leaving the house.
We Brits might have horrible scrappy weather but we do have efficiency in government (in a relative sense). I think I'll winter in Spain and do summer in the UK avoiding any complexity.
peterscott said:
16 February 2013 @ 08:56
To prevent any parking in frount of my drive & bloking access to my driveway it is necesary to purchase a "NO PARKING" sign & fix it you your wall, in Pillar Horra dada. i notified the council I was moveing & the new owner wanted the sign, as did the new owner.
I continually received a demand to pay the rent for this sign .It took me 8 visits over 3 years to the council office to finaly get this sorted --unbeleivable !!!
Bill Stewart said:
16 February 2013 @ 08:58
Paul,
I don't know if you have noticed, but we don't pay TV licence in Spain. My road tax is paid even quicker than yours, as it is done by direct debit.
I think it is high time some of the expats on here went back to dear(ambiguous) old Blighty and give the rest of us some respite from their whingeing.
Linda P Harle said:
16 February 2013 @ 09:39
Hi everybody on this blog, I thought I would write something here, I lived in Spain from 1965 -1999 so you can say most of my life, first of course with my family parents brothers and two little sisters that were born in Malaga, I later married my husband was from Granada and have two children Spanish of course, I lived the Spanish way with a Spanish family mother in law and all the rest totally integrated into the Spanish way of life, I moved back to the uk now nearly 13 years ago but don't feel completely English and don't think I ever will, where I'm going with this story is that although I'm English and lived in Spain all those years I see a lot of things that I used to except as normal then were and are completely mad! My now partner and I are nearing retirement age and honestly want to do whatever years we have in Spain so to be near my children but I'm also dreading it because when I do go ever there for holidays I wonder how I used to deal with all the wierd things and strange ways of doing things that Spaniards have and not go mad, so I will have to say that if you want to live in a country you have to except all of that even if we think it should be done or could be done better and just enjoy what or why you decided to live there for in the first place, like the good weather the good food and of course the ever friendly people of the area which I for one always miss and they are the reasons that I will go back to Spain. Thanks for reading this if you do and don't make the what is called in Spain "las cosas de palacio" change your mind because Spain like every other country had a lot of faults but it all has a lot good things. A once expat that is now waiting for the day she will go back to Spain
Eva2008 said:
16 February 2013 @ 09:40
Typical of Spain. We moved there, lived there for 18 months and were driven back to the sanity of the UK. Spain is a great place for a holiday but an awful place to live because of all these ridiculous laws and layers of red tape. The Spanish don't like the brits and want them out. The Brits refuse to learn Spanish and expect the Spaniards to speak English! The UK may be cold but at least the people are good and the laws are decent and make some sense. Sorry to say to all those who can't make it in England and have run away to Spain, but Spain is CRAP! Go, there, enjoy the sun, enjoy your holiday, laugh at the stupid Spaniards and there laws, and then GO HOME where you belong!
Now, bring on all the die hards....
Eva2008 said:
16 February 2013 @ 09:41
Correction....their laws...
midasgold said:
16 February 2013 @ 10:32
Hi Eggy,
A well written and accurate piece, normal for our Spanish way of life.I just accept that the latin brain was put in upside down
and any 2 minute activity will take the most of my day.
Roland Quesnel said:
16 February 2013 @ 10:38
I've been here 14 years and experienced fair levels of insane bureaucracy. One needs to put it into perspective. Spain has had several hundred years less then Britain to practice a civil democracy, it has come a long way in a short time. I think it does however need a constitutional enema, to rebuild a transparent and streamlined public administration with genuinely accountable politicians. And then to copy the best practices from France (a superbly run place), Germany and even the UK. I do however hope that Spain doesn't adopt the UK's other wonderful advantages such as the near police state, the 24 hour surveillance of every aspect of your life apart from what happens in the privacy of your own toilet, the moral neurosis and intolerance (how hard is it to let Gays marry?), the excessive taxation of every corner of life, the blatantly corrupt and repugnant press, and the alcoholic excesses of its citizens. Anyone who comes here and learns to speak the language will find that braving Spain's idiosyncracies is worth the effort to avoid living in a Britain which seems to me permanently at war with itself.
adimapamida said:
16 February 2013 @ 11:56
OMG you have just described my life for the first year of living in Spain. I also at one point had an incomplete list of paperwork that was required. I also had to return to each place three or four times only to be told each time that something was still missing. I have a huge binder of copies with stamps and i started carrying every single piece of official paper I had ever received in my life every single place I went. AAAAAAH i shouldn't have read this because now I'm reminded of the agony.
eggcup said:
16 February 2013 @ 12:42
Hi all.
Alan: how terrible that you should be fined after having your car stolen at gunpoint. That is a vergüenza.
Paul: to add to your point, I think that it is lunacy for anyone to suggest that the bureaucracy in Spain is in any way comparable to that in the UK. It is not. I think 6 months in Spain and 6 in the UK is a good idea - although watch out for complications regarding bringing your car over, where you're tax resident etc. One of the main messages of this post really is NEVER BUY A SECOND HAND CAR IN SPAIN. And preferably, never sell one either.
Bill: what's wrong with a moan when things are ridiculous and stupid. So if you choose to live in another country, you have to agree with everything and go around with an imbecilic grin on your face?
Linda: you've made a very thoughtful contribution and good luck to you on your return to Spain. You are well-informed and your eyes are open, because of your life experience. Good luck.
Eva: you're entitled to your opinion and Spain can certainly send one around the twist and turn one against it, if you're unlucky enough to experience some of the worst of what the country has to offer. I, too, prefer the UK now as the place to live.
Midasgold: you have succinctly explained to me the mystery of why Spaniards put in shed door locks and handles upside down.
Roland: I don't agree about the UK being a police state; the Spanish police presence is far more felt on a daily basis and personally I love CCTV - it helps to catch countless criminals and makes the UK a safer place to live. And as someone who does speak Spanish, I can say that a knowledge of the language just opens your eyes even more to the lunacy of the Spanish bureaucracy. Linda (above) recognises this having lived in the country and being fluent in the language for over thirty years.
Alimapamida: yes, it is agonising to go over it again. Think of poor me, having to write it all up.
Thanks everyone for the comments. Eggy
Anna said:
16 February 2013 @ 13:04
My sides are still aching with laughing after reading your article, we can identify with your situation exactly! we had more or less the same problems when we bought a second hand car.
Then people wonder why Spain is in such a mess. Until they sort out the bureaucracy here, these nightmare situations will continue.
Thanks so much for cheering me up today.
eggcup said:
16 February 2013 @ 15:53
Thanks Anna. You've had a positive impact on my day too. Eggie.
Scottie said:
16 February 2013 @ 17:12
I don't know what you lot are all fussing about! Moan! Moan! Moan!
I've lived in Spain for years and enjoyed every moment of it. Every day is sunny, bureaucracy is perfect, petrol prices are great, food prices even better and you couldn't wish for more friendly police. Only the Spanish citizens themselves are friendlier - and that's because they know I'm British!
I live in a beautiful Home where I am cared for by the most kind, loving and well-educated staff, and from where I sit each day there is nothing but blue sky.
If anybody wants to contact me I can be reached at:
C/O. Section Z,
Bloque Extranjeros,
Campo 27,
Andalucia.
P.S. Does anybody know how to loosen the arms on a straight-jacket?
eggcup said:
16 February 2013 @ 17:22
Nice one Scottie!
gazzer said:
17 February 2013 @ 09:18
Hi Eggcup, and others, I sympathise with your plight but you and tens of thousands of others are duped either deliberately or by ignorance by LesUnscrupulous when it comes to car transfer. I have lost count of the amount of people in my area that have either "bought" or "sold" a car without having sufficient paperwork and being in the "can't register it or de-register it" situation.
My Aunt lived here in the '90's and I remember her stories of taking her sandwiches and a flask to "Trafico" for the day!
A friend of mine recently received the annual road tax for a car he sold in March. He never got the payment slip form the council so he missed the deadline and had the 5% sanction to pay as well. When he went to the correct council office it wasn't the usual guy who deals with taxes. The newbie looked up everything about my friend and proudly declared he owed for a car he had 12 years ago that was scrapped due to an accident! 50€ per year!
He had an accident and the car was written off (here you get paid out by the ins. co. and you are left with the car). He sold the scrap to a repair workshop and gave them the papers....needless to say, they didn't do a transfer. Hence the 12 year annual bills.
Then there is a dilema: How do I effect a scrapping of a car, when there is no car and no paperwork in order to stop the annual car tax bill?
This where a GOOD Gestoria come into play. Before we get there you have to understand that when the Spanish make a law there invariably is a loophole that circumvents it and a good Lawyer/Gestor/Notario will know what to do to suit your purposes.
So, the Gestor said: we need to apply for replacement paperwork from Trafico, then we make a declaration of "Bajo" which is similar to UK SORN. Take the Bajo to the Council offices and the annual bills will stop.You have paperwork for a car that doesn't exist and no bills. They don't come looking to see if the car is there at all and as it doesn't exist it won't incur any fines! En permanencia! Simples!
It always worries me about Spanish cars being sold in the UK....do you REALLY have ALL the paperwork from the previous owner and are you sure there are no fines or taxes outstanding?
The answer is get to know a Gestor and take their number so that you can ring them with the vehicles registration number and they can tell you instantly what the legal situation with the car is.
Also beware of Gestor "Agents". These are usually car Insurance Offices that offer to do your car transfer. They act as middle men and funnel your paperwork to a "friend" who is a Gestor for 10% rake off. Many times the paperwork goes missing and you have paid the bill but have nothing to show for it. So it will be you paying for replacement paperwork even tho' they lost it!
That's enough Public Service Advice....sorry whingeing as some might say for today!
Hasta la huevo! ........but I don't want any eggs!
eggcup said:
17 February 2013 @ 09:45
Gazzer, your Aunt had her head screwed on. There. You've added another bit of advice to all readers - to take sufficient provisions and maybe even a picnic blanket.