Hi everyone,

Unfortunately, like alot of others, I come to the forum for some help and advice.

There are two basic problems with my community, firstly people who won't pay the community charge and secondly the administrator is absolutely useless.  I can hear you all saying "tell us something new" but as I am on a steep (vertical!) learning curve I hope you old hands might be able to offer some advice.  So here goes........

We are a small community of 19 properties with a small pool out in the country near Mazerron, Murcia. The gardens, such as they are, are 90%  block paving.

When the community was set up it was done automatically by the developer and selling agent after the agent requested we give him our proxy vote so he could attend the first community AGM.  We were ( are?!!) green as grass and knew nothing of the way communitys are supposed to work, except that we would have to pay a "small" community charge. The developer's secretary was elected President and we suddenly had an Asseoria to look after the community. We thought this was normal for a new development.  We never heard anything again until the problems really started last year.

Some of the owners have never taken up residence of their apartments and have never paid the community charge, this has been going on for three years. Those of us who are paying have had enough as the debts on the community are huge.  The community water supply has been cut off and the pool is green etc, etc.  I have been told it is possible to take these owners to court  and sell their property at auction to pay the debts. We have supposed to have started this process through our administrator, who after 6 months has now said it can take 2 years just to get the case listed and any way the banks will get first access to any money and that the sytem is corrupt and the price at auction will be  fixed in favour of the local " mafia" who will buy and sell on at a profit. The new owner will only have to pay one years arrears. The Administrator wants a fee of 35% of the debt for doing this work, plus costs.It seems to me we will be even worse off than we are now.

I do not know how to get the addresses of the non-payers. To be fair they may not know they are in debt for about 2300 Euros each.

To compund this we cannot get any information from the administrator in the form of accounts (that make any sense) or access to the community bank account. Various trades persons are owed money for gardening pool cleaning etc, it seems the administrator doesn't pay them and employs yet  another company when the previous one quits. The last pool cleaner has reposessed the new swimming pool pump as he has not been paid and is owed 800 Euros just for the pump.  At my last meeting (arguement ) with the administrator he told me there was  1 (one) Euro left in the account, despite at least 10 owners paying 65 Euros a month.

By luck I was at my apartment and argueing with the Asseoria when he let it slip there was an AGM (in November 2008).  I got the date and organised  the owners I know to attend/ send proxy votes.  One of us is now President and I have been made Vice President.  However, we gave the Assesoria the benifit of the doubt as he then told us about the no-payers (what could he do about it, poor soul). However things have gone from bad to worse in the last six months.  We are now going to hold a special meeting  in England and we want oto get rid of the Assesoria.  Other people I have spoken to (other communities, a solictor etc)  have said that our  community is so small we should run it ourselves.   This seems a good idea to me.  The question is, is there a legal procedure to go through in Spain to sack the Assesoria or do we just tell him to send in a final account and that he is finished from such and such a date?   I believe a "Denuncia" has been made against him by another community for similar reasons, but I am reluctant to go down that road as I have been reading other threads on other sites which suggest this is a waste of time as the police wont take any action.

Sorry for the length of the post but any help or advice will be very much appreciated

Hi HandH and welcome to the forum.  You should get more replies from people more qualified than me but here's my tuppence worth anyway!

Firstly you did the right thing by taking over the community and the committee now has a right to see all the accounts and the full debtors' list - as well as all the contact details of all the owners.  The administrator's job is to advise you on the law and to take instructions from the committee, specifically the President.  They should do what you tell them, though that can be easier said than done!

If you want to hold a meeting then you need to advise all the owners in advance and you can judge from that whether youare better meeting in the UK or here in Spain.  I'm not sure if resident owners would have legal grounds to complain if you met away from the development but your Administrator should tell you about the legalities of that (if that isn't too much to expect!)  I think there is a requirement to have minutes in Spanish as well as whatever languages you decide are useful and we get our Administrators to do that - you may be better paying someone to do them for you if you don't trust the current administrators to do it right.

In the meantime, as you are in a small development is there not someone who could do some of the general work and try to sort out the pool until you get the finance sorted to begin paying for this again? 

Best of luck!

Do you have the contract that you signed with the Asesoria? We could see your cancellation possibilities there.

Have  you ( as an owner) requested in written the accounts´ information? Who is the president of the Community?

Thanks for replying so quickly Claire T & Mariadecastro.

I have sent all the owners I have contact adresses for an agenda. None of them live in Spain we all use  out apartments for holidays except two owners who let theirs full time.  I knew about the minutes being in Spainish , that isn't a problem our President is fairly fluent.  As fair as I know the non-payers don't get a vote any way but to be fair I have sent  and e-mail to their solicitor (I think we all share the same one, appointed by the developer) 

I don't ever recall seeing a contract from the Asesoria.  The President has asked for the acounts by e-mail (which never gets answered) and I have asked for the accounts by both e-mail and in person at the Asessoria's offices.  The president is onother owner who as I said volunteered because he speaks Spanish and he also happens to be an accountant.

Hi

Not a lawyer but an agent and these are some notes below  I have picked up about community arrangements in Spain, which may be of help

And if you Google I think you will find a lot more information in English

As you would expect community management appears complicated just like in UK for flats but the basics are relatively straight forward and common sense

And lots of problems arise in UK!!!

If you have someone who lives in your complex it may be a good idea to get him on board to play a role in the management but one owner will have to lead the management......it seems to me that the administrator is not making money out of the job and therefore is not interested 

So get rid of him

I would have thought that the technical administration arrangements are already set up and all owners know the rules so it is just a matter of enforcing them

Let me illustrate your problem:

I am a Chartered Surveyor and with my property experience in UK it would be relatively easy to help you to sort out the problems but the cost of paying me would probably be too expensive

If you go to a local lawyer and gave him the job, then that too would be expensive

So you have to do a bit of research and as you have already taken the community   you will need a lawyer to ‘ help’ you with the administration as you have to comply with Spanish Law [as you would expect]

In the same way as you would in UK, if you employ a Spanish lawyer you need to know the cost’ in advance’…..this should not be a problem  

I suggest that you have a small committee of owners who prepare a plan of action with the aim of getting everything sorted

Bit of work but in the long term you should be able to have a nice well maintained complex  

This post is now too long……and bear in mind that my comments are on the information stated on the forum and I am not in full knowledge of all the circumstances

Spanish Horizontal Property Law

In Spain, unless you are buying a detached property or a rural finca there is every chance you will come across a comunidad de propietarios. This is the name given to the organisation comprised of all the owners who have an interest in the complex or development and whose task it is to manage and look after the building and the facilities that your property enjoys along with other properties in the same development. If you buy a property that has any kind of shared facilities such as a pool, gardens, private roads (even the external walls of an apartment block), there will be such a community and you will automatically become a member as you will own proportional share of these areas and facilities.

While you may not relish the thought of annual general meetings with Presidents and treasurers and having to abide by rules and regulations made by the committee, it is actually a very useful and democratic means of managing a complex or development and can even provide a lot of useful information to you before you purchase the property.

The Ley de Propiedad Horizontal or Horizontal Property Law governs such communities and it sets out exactly what is required and how the cost of maintenance and repairs are to be divided among the owners. The first document you should look for before you purchase is the community’s master deed or titulo constitutivo. This will describe each property that forms part of the complex as well as all the facilities shared by the community. It will state what proportion of the cost is allocated to your individual property and to every other property in the community. These costs are decided by reference to the size of the property and any desirable features that may demand a premium. The master deed will also contain the community Statutes estatutos de la Comunidad which govern how the community will be run in addition to the or interior rules normas de regimen interior which govern the more mundane aspects of living in the community day to day.

When you purchase a property in a community it is essential to ensure, as far as possible, that there are no major repairs likely to be needed in the near future. While new properties will have a guarantee from the developer, older properties will not and the cost will have to be met by the residents. After the expense of purchasing the property you would not like to find that you have to contribute to substantial repairs to an area that is not in the immediate vicinity to your own property and that was not mentioned to you by the agent! One way to avoid this type of problem and perhaps find others would be to ask to look at the libro de actas which is a record of the minutes of the meetings of the committee. From this you should be able to see what problems and concerns the residents have raised with the committee of the comunidad de propietarios at meetings.

When you purchase a property your solicitor will need to obtain a certificate from the President of the community showing the status of your property’s account; if there are any arrears owing to the community from the seller, you will be liable for them up to a maximum of two years. Apart from having the legal authority to collect the community fees, the President also has the power to commence legal proceedings against owners who are in arrears and the courts have established an accelerated procedure to deal with such claims. Sanctions for non-payment can include an embargo being placed on the Inscription of the property at the land registry to prevent a sale and the ultimate sanction is that the property may be seized and sold at public auction!

Decisions about the management of the community are usually made by a simple majority vote, although any change to the Statutes will require the unanimous approval of all owners. Often attendance at the annual general meeting can be a lively affair, with several different nationalities of owners trying to get their point of view across, or asking for improvements to the facilities that they feel would be of benefit. As with any democracy, you have a say in the outcome of the meeting. The ability to challenge decisions is limited to those that are considered to be illegal, contrary to the community statutes or in the event that the decision has such an effect as to seriously damage the owners interests in his property. In these cases the owner can apply to the court for such decisions to be annulled. However, this right to challenge decisions is forfeited if the owner is in arrears with his community fees.

As with all aspects of your property purchase, ensure that your solicitor fully explains how the Horizontal Property Law affects your particular property and development. Make sure that you understand what the implications may be for your intended use of the property and that you understand what will be expected from you.

Bit long winded but hope it helps! 

Thanks Rowlandsbb.

I was  generally aware of the horizontal law and have been reading Mariedecastro's articles on them.  Very useful they were too.   You say get rid of the administrator but how?  As I said in my last post I have never had sight of any contract with him. Is it just a case of our owners voting him out at the extraordinary meeting or is it more complicated with him technically being an employee of the community?  Does he have employment protection like in the UK?  Do we site a breach of contract we have never seen?  The owners want to be rid of him and we want to do it quickly and cleanly with no foul ups.

Again, any help much appreciated.

 If you have asked for the contract then perhaps do so in writing and send it by bureaufax from any post office. This is an offical and approved way of knowing you request has been sent and accepted.

If no reply within 7 days you can assume there is no contract and therefore write in the same manner to terminate their services immediatly. They can try and sue you but how far would they get and by the sound of it this is a normal procedure for them, they then just find someone else to leech off. In any case you can defend in court what you have done and why, Have a log of as much as you and others remember as evidence. If monies are missing you can denounce for theft as this is serious!!!

If you cant get any accounts then I think try to get as much info on debts as possible so you have a starting point then get all the owners on a group email and come to an arrangement as to how to pay debts off, collect further monies owed and actions to take against owners not paying. One way could be to send them registered letters to their homes in the UK advising them of legal action and stating once you have judgement you will transfer this to a UK court - then you can chase them there for payment as opposed to try and mess around with the auction system here. If you only get whats owed to date then that will help.

Run this via a lawyer as Im not one and have limited experience of communities but if you can do something like this then it may help to get you out of the mire!

Good luck

Thanks Rixxy, I like the idea of tranfering the case to the UK that should get their attention!

 Exactly! You may even be able to start the action via the small claims court - phone one and find out re jurisdiction. Just because the debt itself is in Spain, doesnt mean you cannot take action near to the persons prelce of residence. Then you have far quicker system and also the pwers you can use, ccj lodged on home residence, maraeva injunctions, attachments to eranings will be more frightening for them there! Also if any are Irish start action in Ireland although from personal experience that takes at least as long as the spanish system!

Hopefully the actual threat will get them to cough up, plus interest and costs.

Its not expensive to instigate action via small claims court and you can do it yourself!

Best of luck and let us know how you get on!!

Thanks again , I am starting to cheer up a bit! 

I am  self employed so I know about taking people to the small claims court over here, believe me!

 Ha. Me too! Or just not paying!!

I welcome you to our wonderful forum where so many, including myself, pull together to try to help others. If we can't help we often just have to content ourselves with saying 'hi & welcome', HandK.

Recently I posted about us (ideally) wanting to change our President & likely our admin & asked how exactly we went about this with our AGM being June 1st. See Our AGM is June 1st: How do I go about 'suggesting' we have a new President ?
in which Maria de Castro (lawyer on EOS) told me

Unless Estatutes say otherwise, charges of Administrator and President are for one year. So initially, id Estatutes does not say the contrary, they need to be renewed once a year. Of course, the Administrator and President can also be removed by the decission of the Community of Owners in a extraordinary meeting and just with majority vote.

I wish you well, you have quite a job on there.

Thanks Morerosado.  I've just read your thread , Phew!  I might be better off as I am being swindled (allegedly)

I presume the Estatutes are individual to each community, if so I have never seen any . If not where can I get a copy?

Rixxy, don't talk about people not paying for my professional services, I might have to go back into therapy.

Hi, for anyone stumbling accross this thread and wondering what happened well read on .........

We waited till our AGM in November 2009, went to Spain to attend and had an agenda item about the performance of the administrator.  When the item came up we asked the administrator to leave the room had a vote between ourselves  ( I think three of us turned up inc the President) Guess what? Yep we voted to get rid of him. He went like a lamb. We had a new administrtor waiting in the wings who took over the running of our community.  It took him some time to get all the info from the previous one, accounts,  etc but we are making headway.  The new guy has got us 9K Euros in unpaid community charges from the banks as alot of the non -payers (Brits I am shamed to say) gave their apartments back to the banks in the crash.  There should be more to come.  We have paid the community electric bill off and are paying the water off, hopefully the pool will be re-commisioned in the Spring.We are also improving the security to the complex to stop people sneaking in for a free swim.

Unfortunately I was robbed over Christmas -  the usual electrical stuff-  and dealing with that is a nightmare to be honest but the improved fencing should deter future attempts (Ihope!!!)

We are having an SGM in Feb 2010 to set up community rules  and other bits and pieces and then hopefully we can move forward.

A final thank you to all Eye on Spain members who helped out with advice.   I watch the site and If I can ever help anyone else I will do  ----- many thanks

Hi

my favourite hotel is the kempinski.

Pi

Hi

sorry don't know what happened there

PI

Hi, for anyone stumbling accross this thread and wondering what happened well read on .........

First time of reading your thread and I was pleased to read the last installment.

Well done for showing the determination to see it through.  It's a lot of hard work but now you should see what good adminstrator can do.

Unfortunately this happens a lot, even more so with the property crash. 

Have you read the threads on running a community, there could be some helpful advise on there.

The last time I did jury service I met up with someone who had a similar problem.  I can't remember if she was president or secretary but as most of the debtors were holiday home owners resident in UK she regularly phoned them for payment.  Her pesistance paid off in the end. 

I'm Rob.

I'm also the President of our community. We don't have a big problem with bad debts because we come down hard and quickly on bad payers but we have had a couple and one in particular who lives elsewhere ( not UK I'm glad to say ).

The owner is aware of his debt to the community. We have now taken him to the small claims court but we have had no reply. We had to give him 3 months to address the problem but heard nothing.

Next week I go to the Notary who will endorse our claim ( not sure of the legal terminology for this ) and the owner then has 3 months more to pay. After that if he doesn't pay we will be given permission to sell the property at auction to recover the debt. 

Cost to the community. €600. Therein lies the problem. The Spanish legal system is very slow and very expensive.

Regular updates on the community web site: alteanatura.net
Best wishes
Rob.

I'm Rob.

I'm also the President of our community. We don't have a big problem with bad debts because we come down hard and quickly on bad payers but we have had a couple and one in particular who lives elsewhere ( not UK I'm glad to say ).

The owner is aware of his debt to the community. We have now taken him to the small claims court but we have had no reply. We had to give him 3 months to address the problem but heard nothing.

Next week I go to the Notary who will endorse our claim ( not sure of the legal terminology for this ) and the owner then has 3 months more to pay. After that if he doesn't pay we will be given permission to sell the property at auction to recover the debt. 

Cost to the community. €600. Therein lies the problem. The Spanish legal system is very slow and very expensive.

Regular updates on the community web site: alteanatura.net

Best wishes
Rob.

Remember that you can also charge a penality rate of interest on the outstanding amount. Themn the debtor just has to balance the increase in his eventaully unavoidable charge to the community against getting a loan or using his credit card to pay off the debt.