We bought a 2,500 sq m plot of land in 2002 in Estacion de Cartama

Hi my name is Jan , and have just found out how these forums work, wish I had found them sooner. 

We along with ten other plot owners, purchased Land of off an Estate Agent, four of us engaged the same Spanish speaking Solicitor, the same Estate Agent , ( who was also  the promoter, he arranged the ground survey, the builders, he in fact was supposedly arranging everything. )

It was not until  one of the Houses was up for sale (that was advertised with the same Estate Agent) did  we realise what a mess we were in ........ I do have a copy of his website with the said house advertised on it , but needless to say the Estate Agent is no longer around,but if the name Max Lorch rings a bell with anyone out there , please get in touch.

Our houses are illegally built, we are on Rustic Land, we have no segregation licence, no building license , no nothing really...

And just to add insult to injury one of the Houses was demolished in June 2004, where does that leave the rest of us, at this moment in time , with a hefty fine and the worry of a demolition order coming in the post any day.

If you are in a similar situation , be it with your extension , or an illegal build, please get in touch and help us to form a group of likeminded people , who want solutions not demolitions, and want to be Legal.....

And yes we thought we had done everything correctly, you dont really think that we would have bought illegal land if we had known or do you ? And now five years on we know exactly what we should have done ..................

 

 

Hola Jan, so sorry to hear about the mess you find yourself in and I would have no idea of how to begin to sort it.

Someone on the forum may come up with something as there is a mine of information on here.

Good luck.

Hi Janny

Glad you worked out how to use the forum

Sorry to hear your story.  I wasn't aware of the problems in Cartama. 

We are currently working on a project where we will try and do something for people in your position.  It's in the early stages but would appreciate a few more details please.  If you can email me at info@eyeonspain.com with the name of your development, who you bought through, who the developer is, etc.

Thanks

Justin

Hi Janny,

Welcome to EOS

Sorry about all the problems you are having, my Brother's partner lives in Catral, Costa Blanca and has a demolition order on her villa, as does her neighbours. A total of around 4,000 homes, scandalous!

Kind regards,

Hi Justin / Janny.  We have some friends in the Cartamar area and we know about 5 years ago there was loads of illegal builds going on, this was the way it was done,  the law allowed you to build a tool shed on your land if you had a certain size plot I think it could be up to 65 sq mts  ( tool shed size)        with weekend use for looking after your land, the Spanish people had most of these, but they slowly built bits on until it was a house or villa but with no permission  granted and then sold them on with no legal papers it was pretty normal in the country to do this and was going on for years, but  about 3-4 years ago they started to check out these illegal builds/ conversions and stop it by forming these special police for checking this out and closing sites, thats was when many owners found out they had no permission on there property and had bought only a piece of land with a illegal house on it,  they bought useing the private contract  method as no deeds required this way and lawyer proberly said dont worry this is normal and  we can sort this out for you ( more costs ). But Janny problem is a bit different to the details above,             but I expect you know all this Justin already,  I expect now that Cartama owners that have this problem and many others in the area will join this site for info.    Rgds  Rosi n  

How nice to realise that people do actually care.

We had a meeting of the Group yesterday , and it looks promising, but like with everything it will take time to get it right, but at least we have started. And through this forum you do find out that you are definately not on your own,  and as  always there is somebody worse off then you, we hadnt heard about the problems in Catral, what can they do about it ?or what are they doing about the situation ?

We are off on a few days holiday this week, to look around the Cadiz area with the daughter and boyfriend, so will not be on line for a few days, and just when I am getting into these forums ! 

Whilst working we never saw any of Spain,running a bar was very time consuming, but thats another story..................

By the way have any of you noticed that Estate Agents are still selling Rustic Land in 2,500 plots, you cannot build it on , but yet they still have this land up for sale , what else would you want to do with it I  ask myself. And believe it or not the plot on our Land where they demolished the House in June 2004 is up for sale, for 98,000.00 Euros ! just doesnt make sense to me does it to you ? Who would buy a plot like that ? sounds a bit like who would live in a House like this !!!!!

 

 

 

 

Hello Janny,

I´m a Spaniard living in Málaga town, quite near Estación de Cártama.

I am really sorry te hear about your situation. I hope you´ll find a solution to this problem.

I´m just posting this reply to give my personal point of view, because I think there´s some general misunderstanding about legal or illegal plots for building in Spain:

Like everywhere, in Spain there are laws regulating the use of land. And like everywhere too, there are real estate agents and private lawyers just cheating people to get there money. First thing to be done I think is going yourself to the Town Hall and asking about the legal status of a plot of land; this information must be provided to the asker for free. No matter what other parts involved in the purchase (estate agents & lawyers, etc), by going to the Town Hall you know the truth. To be honest, I think is fair to admit that if you´ve bought a plot of land not legally suitable for builing, the authorities have the right to take actions on this situation. It is true too, as I see it, that if the buyer have been cheated maybe a midpoint solution should be found. But this is not a corruption case, I think it is unfair to say that in all situations Spanish authorities are corrupted. On the other hand, it is true to that in many areas of a lot of municipalities (at least in Málaga area, that is what I know), it was common in old times to build in "not regulated lands", just because there were no exact legislation on those days or it was not common to register the property, so it didn´t matter then the use of land. Today many Town Halls are trying to solve these situations to make these areas legal. For example in Málaga town, in the area of Puerto de la Torre, since decades ago, many Spanish families where just building their own homes following no legal procedures about the status of land, type of property, number of floors, etc.

So, I think is important to know what is and what is not a local political corruption case. Another thing are the bad real estate agents and lawyers (both Spanish and British). And finally just to say that many Town Halls prefer to find a better solution than just demolishing a property. It is difficult then for them to make the law follow and at the same time not to demolish! We must understand that if you do something illegal, even without knowing it, the law must be done, this not political corruption. I truly hope that you Janny and the other buyers of those plots find a good solution. Just find a good private lawyer. I didn´t try to say you´ve done something bad if you didn´t know it, I just wanted to use your case as an example, because I´ve read in some British Media saying demolishing houses built in rustic plots lands was an example of Spanish Corruption.

Goog Luck and all the best!       

  

 

 Many thanks for taking the time to post your personal point of view, I did find it very informative, and as we know not all cases are the same.

We do now what we should have done, and must say we are now regular visitors at the Town Hall, and I also stood as a Candidate in the May elections, albeit we didnt get in.

Lets hope our Town Hall will find solutions and not demolitons, and that it will be possible to  take the Rogue Estate Agent , Max Lorch to court, and no he wasnt Spanish !

gracius

Well still here in Estacion de Cartama waiting for all those people to apprach us with a view to creating an action group...... Maybe all these illegal house owners do not have access to the net, so will have to use the old mouth to mouth, as that usually works.

But seriously it seems that people are just sitting their in their illegal Houses hoping that it will just come right , one day , sorry I cant do that , life is too short, I want to move on, see a bit of Europe, not be trapped in an illegal House forever.

And by the way we are still no further forward, but everything comes to those who wait, so my Mum says.

Does anybody actually have a copy of the New Law that was supposed to have come into effect in 2003, regarding situations such as ours ?i.e. building without a licence, building on Rustico land .

 We will be off to the Town Hall this week, once the van is back from its service, and hope to question them this week ...again

 

 

Regards to all

Hi Janny,

I  am really sorry to read about your problems and hope you get a good outcome in the end.

Regards Julia

Well we havent been to the Town Hall this week as the Van is still in the Garage, so looks like next week now.

We want to get a copy of the Law that apparently changed in 2003 , regarding  our circumstances, has anyone out there heard of this Law Change , and  be able to explain it ?

I think it is more a case of of implementing the Law that is already there, not an actual Law change, but I did say only think !!!

 

 

Hi

This seems to be the norm!  How are things now? any progress or are they still knocking houses down?

Hola, well they havent demolished any more Houses in the area at present,but there have been more demolition orders issued. As for progress, no our situation and many others is still the same, but that is not to say that we are not doing anything in the background.  We are heavily involved with a political party and hope that the future will provide a solution !!! And for anyone buying in Spain just take care, Eye on Spain is a great place to find out all the information !!!!

Last year a lady who lives in Almeria sent me some notes in English of the history and practice of what we call 'Land Grab Laws' They are based on her research and give a very precise explanation

it is written in Word and too long [ 12 pages] to publish on this forum

If anyone would like a copy I can e-mail it to as an attachment

See my e-mail below

Hi, How stressful, have the demolition orders been issued for houses in your area?

Did you see this

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=507451&in_page_id=1811&ct=5

Its nice to see that there are still people are again starting to look at this thread,but there are still hundreds of people (or thousands )in the same boat so to speak that are not doing anything about the situation and hoping that it will go away. Without the support of these people in the same situation we are up against a brick wall really !!!!  We are  trapped in this  situation and cant move forward .And the reason I use the word trapped is because  we are trapped. The Town Hall could have stopped us building from the the very beginning, but they didnt , and  consequently we sank all our savings into the property, and as anyone knows it is not easy to get work here .......... So what do we do now .................... we cant just sit and wait ......... or can we .......

Hi Jan

I feel so bad for you & countless others in your situation. I missed seeing your initial post last June as we were in Spain at the time & this forum moves so fast at times but I've just quickly read up on the thread as it featured in the last 20 posts. Just really wanted to show support. I just can't imagine how we'd cope if we found ourselves in that situation.  Good luck.

Solutions not Demolitions

 

Well I have just read the  paper and there has been a demoliton in Vera la loma in Almeria,  Len and helen have lost their home after a long legal wrangle,it is thought to be the first case of a british-owned home in Spain to be demolished in such a way............. how I feel for this couple , and as always it could be anyone of us next. This is the time to stand up and be counted,  it is no good just sitting back and waiting for what might happen. We need to unite now and find a solution to this problem......... Solutions not Demolitions

Hi Jan, my name is jackie,me and rob met you at the demolition, do you remember, can tell you some info regarding pgou, in 2003 it was submitted to the Junta and every year since it has had to be revised, the final pgou was supposed to be out on feb 21st this year, even the town hall said that, that has passed, and I think from what I can make out on the internet it has been delayed till either june or the end of the year.

Our area is supposed to become urban, but the idiot up the town hall says its not, hubby asked about our houses and many others he simply said with hand movements that they will all be knocked down, nice man, not. we have an escitura with two plot numbers 3 catastral numbers for 2 plots and one house, we pay IBI, and have a file which is massive. I am now getting sick of it all, I did not know anything about you standing in the elections, or this website, you need mass advertising, but you know what the english are like, frightened to do anything in case their house gets knocked down, I used to do a lot of legal cases in the uk, and won them all, just wish I knew the law here so well, If there is one. we dont go in the bars, and most of them in the bars here are too pissed to care, or rent. we need to know exactly what is happening, and where we stand in selling our house, the town hall just say the same old rubbish, they dont even know what is what. I do feel very trapped in this bloody place, as you probably do,

its a nightmare, but unless we tell some home truths to these english people , who probably a ll live in illegal houses, any house on rustic land is illegal, I cant see much support from them, and If you tell them the truth they dont want toknow, and bury their heads in the sand, they will soon come running when its too late and the diggers are on their doorstep. if you need some help in your campaign let me know. also did you sell your bar...

Hi all,

I found your thread whilst looking for information of a segregation licence.

We have found ourselves in a nightmare situation.

My father died last year.  He had a property in Malaga area.  Fortunately he had a spanish will but no spanish or english life insurance, so we are currently looking at a heafty spanish inheritance tax bill.

We were unaware the problems he was in regarding his property in spain, as he was old fashioned i suppose and tought that he was protecting us, and also I don't think he wanted to admit what a mess he was in.

Below is an extract from an email from our solicitor.

 Land Registry reply
We posted the original deeds. They have been revised one by one (at no cost) and the Land Registry has finally replied that the deeds cannot be registered unless we can amend the following issues:

A) Purchase deed signed on 27 april 1993 : it is necessary to deliver the Segregation License issued by the Town Hall.

B) New Building Declaration Deed signed on 10th april 2000

C) Purchase deed signed on 5th September 2002 (signed by verbal attorney Mr. S which was ratified by Mr H on 23rd September 2002):

The issue of Segregation License appears to be a more difficult task, it would be necessary to contact the former owners and get as much information as possible, even from the Town Hall to check if they have any records of a segregation license granted to Mr M on 1993.

As explained, the issue of Segregation License apeared to be a more difficult task.

We firstly made contact with the Urban Planning department of Antequera Town Hall and they told us that it didn't appear any licence as per their records. Additionally we called Mr F C, the person who sold the property to Mr H and he explained that there wasn't any licence of segregation because the surface of the plot segregated was smaller than the minimum one which is compulsory under Spanish Law. In fact this is the reason why he couldn't register his property at the Land Registry.

So now this has been clarified, unfortunately it seems we cannot proceed with the registration due to the lack of segregation license.

 

I am really confused about this as the property is up a mountain with many other properties, I think they may be on larger plots.  I am unsure about what is required for a spanish property to be legal and what is a segregation licence etc.  I would ask our solicitor but at 240.00 per hour I thought I would try here first. 

 

Regaards

 

Lisa

Hi Lisa, I am a bit confused, here is alist of questions if you could answer them I shall try and give any info I can.
When did your father actually buy this house,
Was there a house on the land,
Does he have an escitura, -deed-
has he done any building.

Land can only be segregated if the individual plots are the legal amount set by the town hall, but my neighbours have all segregated their land
with less than the required amount, all depends if you have family or friends in the town hall, or a nice brown envelope with money in it. does he
have a catastral number. e mail me privately with the address or area where his house is, and I will check the catastral for you, this will tell you what you have,
and may help a bit.. It is a minefield with every town hall having different rules, which they dont even know themselves. I would think that being up a mountain
it would be very illegal, but who knows ,  Things have become a lot stricter in the last couple of years, so lawyers, agents etc, are less likely to do anything dodgy, its not so easy to sell illegal stuff now,  e mail me with you details to myer200@yahoo.com

I have one finca with 2 parcelas, both have catastral numbers, but everyone Ive asked about it says I cannot seperate them as two seperate things or have two deeds.
so has to be sold as one , even though my spanish neighbours have. life is unfair being a guiri.

jackie

Hola to all, well our situation is still on going in Estacion de Cartama,we are no further forward but at least for the moment our Houses in finca Raton are still standing. We have no segregation order , and it is most unlikely that we ever will, but we have applied for the Land to be put in all our names .... dont know how this will work or how it can be done , our Spanish friends are working with our Lawyer  on this one, and if and when it comes to fruition I will let you all know.   As for making them legal well nobody still seems to have a clue !!!!! what to do !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi Janny,

Happy to hear they have not knocked down your property yet, and that you are still fighting the fight. 

We are still trying to find out further information from our solicitor regarding our own situation as we are being pressed to sort out the property valuation so that the inheritance tax amount can be calculated.  Easier said than done as the banks have to legally value it but they will not issue us with an official valuation as the property is not registered at the land registry as there is no segregation licence.  Reading all the past post on this thread  it make me wonder pay why I should it if they could knock the house down.  I have asked a neighbour to my late fathers property in Colmenar as I have been told that the land is "secano" (rural dry land) and therefore, the referred minimum size is 25,000 m2. my father's plot size as per the purchase deed he signed is  3,202.50 m2 so it does not comply with the minimum size requirement, if there land is registred the same as looking on the cadastral the plots in the same area, the other plots do not look 10x larger than my fathers, I am waiting for a reply, perhaps they are and the owners don't know.  Anyway good luck with your own situation and anyone else who finds themselves in a similar nightmare.  If you do start up an action group etc count me in.  I am in the UK but anything I can do just ask. 

Regards

Lisa

Hi Janny and all of  the others in this sad situation.

My name is Sarah and I am living in Houston Texas, I feel helpless being so far away from my mum. I found your forum this morning after spending two days on the phone to my mum Maureen who lived in Cartama. My parents sold thier home in England and in January of 2004 bought cash through an estate agent, a partially built home with a considerable amount of land. A lawyer was present at the signing of the home and my parents pressumed that everything was legal.

Mum moved into the house and had a pool built and made a support wall for the entry to the house, as the house is high on a hill and it was for it needed it for privacy and safety reasons. The builder of the pool told her that no permission was needed as long as he followed certain guidelines for pool building. The outside structure of the house was there already and she spent thousands finishing the inside of the house.

Like you she has now been given a whopping fine, told at one point that the house was never there when she bought it and she had to find evedence that it was.  We did get one ariel view and we are trying to get more evidence, although I feel they don't care if it was there or not. 

The Estate agent still lives in Cartama and will NOT help her. Thousands of Euros have been paid to lawyers that have made the situation worse and now they are threatening to demolish the pool and the wall , also maybe the house. The fine is close to forty thousand euros and the nieghbors around her also built pools and only were given small fines. I think that she is being victimised and singled out for some reason.

Someone has to be accountable for this, be it the estate agent or the previous seller. Her whole life savings has been put into this not to mention the hard work. I think that she is going to have a nervous breakdown. My dad is back in England taking a job at 64 yrs old to pay the fine that even when paid means nothing. The house is still illegal  if they pay it so what is the fine for and it can still be pulled to the floor.

We can pull together, a class action law suit to the estate agents, contact the British consulate to protect you, go to the British papers and television. Why don't you all meet in the village and pull together to find a solution to this. Can someone help my mum and meet her for a coffee? She is alone and not sleeping worried that they are coming for her home.

What should we do first, lets come up with a plan!

Regards,
Sarah.

 

Hi sarahc,
I wish I could help but we are miles away.
Tell your Mum she is in my thoughts, not much help I know but all I can do.

Sarah, I am so sorry to hear of the awful situation your parents find themselves in; it really isn't fair for things like this to happen! I am not in a position to help being in England, but would suggest that you send a message to MariadeCastro, a very good lawyer, who contributes to EOS and gives advice about peoples questions and is extremely highly regarded. She may be in a position to point your parents in the right direction as to the best way forward. If you look on the general forums and find where she has posted you could either as on there, or send her a private message.

My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family for a positive outcome.

Regards Julia

sarah, ask your mum to contact me and I will try to help her, The estate agent who sold her the house has broken laws, as new laws are now in
place. how long has the house been there. there are things you can do. It is very frustrating as the town hall are a bunch of muppets who make 
it all up as they go along.
your mum can call me on 678517599 and I will arrange to meet her.

 

Jackie

Hi Everyone,
I just wanted to say a Thank You for your support and Jackie I will pass on your number to my Mum and tell her to phone you - Thank You. Her name is Maureen. I feel so bad for her she has not slept or been able to eat in four days in fear that they are coming to pull the house down!

They have no land line up there and her cell has to get a good signal, I will try just now. At this point she is wishing that she had stayed in England, I pray that I can help her in some way.

I phoned Nasa yesterday and they told me of a French company that do spot imaging of the world going back until 1998. So I will try and get an image of the property before she moved in to it.

I am ready to fight this and get lawyers on the estate agent, the lawyer and find the seller who is in England. 

The Spanish council can not do this to people it is against human rights!  Could you image Britain doing this to the people?  We treat illegal criminals better in our country than this, most of the people that they are doing this to are good citizens looking for a better life. 

I could understand it if the land was not hers,  or the home was not tasteful, I think she kept the look very Spanish and a darn sight better than what was there before. As far as them saying that the pool has to be filled in by the retaining wall debris is crazy, everyone has a pool in the area and she is willing to pay a fine for having it built. Thay said if she doesn't do it they will send someone and charge her!

Thanks Everyone and bless you all.
Sarah.

We will be able to offer our legal perspective if you send to us the related documentation.

Best,

Maria