have the agents been wiped out in the property war

that poor wee soul who was kidnapped in Nigeria (was it Nigeria?) her dad's family are from Murton -

they got her back, thank goodness

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I hate to add to the 'small world' theme - but I actually lived 10 years in Hartlepool (born in Middlesbrough), moved to Hpool when I was 3. Have memories of swimming in Seaton Carew swimming baths (probably long gone by now I hope!!) - swam for Hartlepool swimming club in the early '70's.

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this is getting funnier by the minute, I was born in M,bro, lived in Seaton carew, also learned to swim in seaton baths, they used to throw us out for the swimming club to take over the pool.I used to queue to buy magic tricks at Macs shop in seaton, opposite the bus station, paul daniels was a regular visitor to the same shop. he was the same age as me. i wrote to him and he remembers it well. we came across him and debbie in a Gibralta street a couple of years back but couldnt get near for autograph hunters.Paul was also born in mbro. south bank. gee I go on as much as aunty em!!!!!!!!!

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NO NO NO NO!!! Unbelievable! Hubby no1 was from Hartlepool and I lived there from 92 to 95 when I moved out to Spain!!!!

Went to Crimden loads of times and know the places you are all talking about.

However I am a London girl born and bred - couldnt stand the cold up there and been here in Spannyland since 95!

ps I was invited to join the same Magic Circle as Paul Daniels! Wasnt always an auctioneer!!!!!

Crikey - what a small world it is!

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OK - thought I would bring this one back up to the fore!

Its quite the doom and gloom out there with many reports stating agents closing down and with 300 out of business on the Costa Blanca, and 40% gone in the Malaga region! Of course this is only the actual legal ones who pay tax etc as there must be another 10 illegal casual 'estate agents' ie neighbours, friends and colleagues all out there trying to make a few quid on a sale of a property! Hopefully these will be running to other climes leaving us poor lot who actually pay tax and social security to get on with it! The interest rates look like they are going to be increased, which will put more pressure onto overstretched buyers as well, here and in the UK!

Anyway, we had been rather quiet through the summer (which helped to top up the tan!), but this week things have picked up, with offers on properties and a few viewings

So just to keep an even track and accurate reading of the market from an agents point of view - although it will be intersting to see how many actual buyers there are out there!

I heard a rumour (???) that Ryanair were to pull out of the Almeria route due to falling passenger numbers! At least the Costa del Sol doesnt have that problem - the airport is to be extended for a second runway as it is reckones passnger traffic will double over the next few years!

Heres Hoping!

Have a good weekend everyone

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A lot of the down turn in agents business is, I believe, due to the increased awareness that both buyers and sellers have of the option of conducting Spanish sales direct from the current owners.
Buyers, largely due to national press exposure of agents' high commission fees, are more clued up now than ever before...and will NOT continue to pay unrealistic asking prices, just to cover the sellers costs of using an Estate agent....

The private sales route benefits might not seem quite so obvious to sellers, but, without the need to bolster their asking prices in order to cover their overheads, they can sell far more quickly, because of the (by comparison to agents) much lower prices they can ask for their properties in order to walk away with the same capitol from the sale! giving them a huge advantage over other homes on the marketplace.

The amount of 'Enquire Within' boards hanging on garden gates throughout southern Spain is testament to the fact that people will not accept unreasonable agents fees any more, in return for (in some cases) very little work....and would rather try to sell privately.

The increased awareness of late as well, that there is NO legal requirement to use an agent at all, and that they actually perform no legal function (despite getting paid more per sale than the qualified lawyers!) has also led to more and more private sales in recent times joining this real estate revolution.

Much more information an private selling can be found within the pages of a very interesting blog HERE.

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I agree with SSD that people coming here to buy are more clued up than ever before due to the fact that that there are more people already living here or have bought here to tell their freinds how things work and its true for too long agents have been charging very high commissions for little work, they may initially do a lot of running around for a sale but then what about the aftersales with many you get non, yes there are a few that you can get help until you dont need it but not many,I have helped people I havnt even sold to get padrons and health cards when the agent  they brought from has left them high and dry not understanding how it all works and is busy with new clients for the necomer this is when the fun really starts what with the new residence certificates, SIP cards, pardrons and schools enrolements etc finding Spanish lessons, sorting out your car or buying one, finding where to go for things etc insurances, mortgages, knowing which banks to avoid so as not end up paying extortionate charges, etc etc the list goes on...........Is this right?

The trouble is too many people thought that as they needed to work when they relocated here that they too could see how easy it was to mediate in a sale of a property without having any real experience and or qualifications, and make some money, lets face it this is one of the biggest hurdles of people coming here when they still need to earn a living. I think for the buyer this is the most important thing as and unfortunately some agents only have one thing in mind and its not the welfare of the buyer but whats in it for them and this is where the problems start for the buyer who is left to deal with things that have been skirted over.

Not the case any more as the market has been saturated both with agents and properties so not there are not enough buyers to go round, so there is no room now for so many agents it was bound to happen and with more and more people moving in land from the coast the problem is more profound than ever on the coast, hopefully the market will eventually level, properties will again be realisitcally priced for what they are and people will start to have faith again in the market, but for now I think that although there will always be a steady influx of people moving out here there are too many properties and certainly agents.

The internet has played a big part in this, as now with so many information sites and forums telling people of each other experiences and how to avoid the pitfalls it is hard not to know how it works here and so buyers do more research and know more about how the market works so they perhaps come out and rent and then buy without an agent, totally acceptable if you use a reputable lawyer.

Despite this it is still a minefield especially for people not speaking the language so what we need or they need to get the confidence back is to know that they are getting a good fair deal and if they are paying for an intermediate in the sale then they are getting their money's worth.

I think if people know this then they really are quite happy all they want is guidance and to be treated fairly.

The bottom line is reasonable fees should be charged as well a buyers getting the support they deserve and or have been promised.

I know some agents have large overheads and need to charge more, but some fees are astonishing!

 

 

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Hi SSD,

Interesting advert,sorry blog,but what you have forgotten in this master plan to eradicate agents is that people buy from people and when buying in a foreign country with foreign systems need good guidance and advice to negotiate the tricky pathways that lead to completion.

There are now more and more "internet agents" that appeal to the fact of low or no commision,what you have to ask yourself is where they are making their money??or are they all registered charities???

What these internet companies fail to acknowledge is that the agents are evolving here and if they dont or can't because of overhead restrictions then they will fall.

As well as ourselves i know of three good agents that now charge 2-3% commision inclusive of the sale price as has been normal in the UK market for years hence not affecting the sellers price at all,so in essence buyers can be confident that they are not paying over the odds.

This is inclusive of the helping hand to get NIE,Padron,schools,doctors,solicitor,bank accounts and on and on.............

I guess this is where the interenet company steps in and helps free of charge!!?? or is it a nominal fee??!!!or is it more than an agent would make on the sale?or am i just being cynical.

As for little or no effort from the agent for a sale,if anyone wants to come out with me on a 14 hour day in 90 degrees then they are more than welcome,the blood sweat and tears you have to put in to keep a good reputation is phenominal and often for very little gain.

At the end of the day the good will survive and some of the bad who never knew really what they were doing will fall away,that is only good news for anyone!.

I am afraid that the days of the non qualified agent taking more money from a sale are dissapearing along with the non qualified agents(i have 18 years experience by the way).

I do take my hat off to you for trying to establish a business in a difficult market but as for trying to market it with misconceptions of old practices i am not quite sure of the longevity.

A true Agent

Regards

Georgia

 

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Well done Georgia,

I have to add to this of course!

Whilst internet adverts are great, they are open to their own abuses. Owners always think they know best but have really no idea of the prices of property or how valuations work.

I know that Georgia, Gillespie and myself have a thorough understanding of our local property markets, and how to price correctly. All of us when attaining a correctly priced property have clients we can call and match it to (in most cases) and also many buyers are wary of dealing directly with owners.

We also understand escrituras, the changing mortgage criteria situation with banks, the changing legal system as we have to deal with it daily and other factors involved when handling a sale

We are the wealth of information, important, minor or totally irrelevant that both buyers and sellers want and need on a daily basis - most of which you can see we give freely (our time and money) to this forum

We tell it how it is, truthfully and honestly, not an owner who at the end of the day is out for as much as he can get and in some cases they do give false information ie actual declared square metres on an escritura when they have extended the proeprty and not declared it!

We are the ones who check as much of the paperwork as we can as we do not want to waste everyones time or look a total wally by not knowing our stuff.

So - ask anyone who has actaully bought through one of these independant internet sites, just how independant and truthful are they, what is the legal comeback in the case of misrepresentation, but mostly ask yourself this - in my area one such internet agency started up, all good hopes etc.

Due to the fact it was left to the owners to place their information etc my understanding is not a lot sold. Consequently I have had numerous owners dissatisfied with the service asking me to sell their property. I truthfully value in in accordance with the current market and to the properties saleability and have a high success rate with the owners prepared to listen.

Said agency has closed its doors after approx 2 years!

I have over 22 years in the business both the UK and the last 12.5 years here.

A true Auctioneer

Regards

Rixxy

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Hi Georgia,

Thanks for raising several important issues...

1. You say we have:-  "a master plan to eradicate agents".......

What nonsense! - Here are some quotes from SSD website - A site which you have clearly only very briefly looked at!

"We concede that there are some excellent agents out there"......"you can advertise privately alongside an Agent"......"Keep on using one or more agents, it doesn’t matter"......"The one simple aim of 'Spanish Sales Direct' is to give buyers & sellers a choice."...... "Many people do not even realise that they can sell this way (privately), with or without an Estate Agent.”


2. You say:- "people buy from people and when buying in a foreign country with foreign systems need good guidance and advice to negotiate the tricky pathways that lead to completion."

What 'foreign systems' and 'tricky pathways'! - you are trying to make it sound like ordinary people cannot undertake the SIMPLE tasks necessary to sell their own home;

a) Decide on the asking price.
b) Write a description of their own home.
c) Take some inviting photographs.
d) Make an appointment to see a solicitor.
e) Qualify a potential buyer by email or telephone.
f) Conduct a viewing of their home.
g) Negotiate a price, and accept or decline offers.

3. You say that you are charging 3% commission - "hence not affecting the sellers price at all,so in essence buyers can be confident that they are not paying over the odds".

WRONG....Even if we use a fairly modest example of a 250,000€ asking price. 3% is another 7,500€ which DOES effect the sellers price, because the seller WILL add that 7.5K to the asking price of their home, plus a bit more for negotiation! - So a buyer WILL be paying over the odds (260.000€ compared to being privately advertised for 10,000€ less), or rather they WONT actually, because they are not stupid. And the property will then lanquish unsold on your books like so many thousands of others on the marketplace like it are.

4. You say:-  "This is inclusive of the helping hand to get NIE,Padron,schools,doctors,solicitor,bank accounts and on and on............".
Everybody now knows that NIE has to be done in person now.
PADRON - (Cost = ONE euro/ Time = 2 minutes in the local town hall). and you have to be there anyway...why pay an agent to stand next to you!
School, doctors, solicitor, bank account - All can be done VERY easily and quickly, WITHOUT an estate agent - and in fact should be. - The worst mistake you can make is deal with a bank or solicitor recommended by somebody who has a vested interest in the sale! - It nearly always leads to a 'conflict of interests', but does, of course mean that the agent gets another 10% on the back of each 'recommendation' the client accepts!!!

5. you say:- "if anyone wants to come out with me on a 14 hour day"...
OK, so you work a 70 hour week in 90 degree heat!.....I am sorry, but I cant help but just laugh at that one...
Do you really & honestly believe that people who do not live in Spain will swallow that one....? Those of us that do live here know better...

I genuinely thank you for putting yourself, and your fellow agents in such a good light - I think some people will see the huge benefits of using you and others like you....
.....Everybody else can come to my website and give themselves another option.

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SSD - you are very below the belt on a couple of your points!

Firstly, we negotiate a price with the owner pointing out HOW banks value properties - which is totally different to the UK banking system of next door comparables. THEN our 2.5% is INCLUDED in that price, same as the UK - in the UK agents (suprisingly) charge a fee for the promotions and work they do - this is included in the selling price.

I have owners daily who cannot sell their properties and have no idea why when other agents (and most do) go around, take details, ALSO THE OWNERS WHAT THEY WANT FOR IT and then state their commission bei it 1% 5% or 10-15%

Owners themselves make the decision to add the commission on top!!!

So what stops them picking a price out of the air and using that on your site, using the clever marketing play that as it is direct to the owner, it must be cheaper than through an agent???? Who makes the groundrules???? You will find properties cheaper through us than owners who advertise directly!!!

None of us charge anyone to help them with the process including NIE's of course assuming they have purchased with us as we are not a charity! Although we will advise freely how to do it. And that includes getting in the que at 5 or 6am to get the TICKET for the client to then stroll in at a reasonable time to apply in person

I actually do have a facility where I can bypass all that for clients who do not want to fly over until completion and can get an NIE without all that palava!!!

Also we have a range of brokers and lawyers who do not give us a backhander for the client, at our request they deduct it from the price they would charge the client - so totally transparent and with the buyers interest totally in place.

You are very obviously out here to promote your website and whilst the professionals on this forum are allowed by the owner of this forum to have our sites in ourportings, this is because we have given of our time and advice freely and CONTRIBUTE to this site - unlike yourself.

The readers of this forum will most certainly make their own minds up which way to go!

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Hi SSD,

Some fairly reasonable points made there but i would be wary of a couple of things;

relating to paragraph 2.

How do they decide on an asking price considering everyone wants top dollar for their property and what is it based on?

Qualify and conduct viewings?! would you let anyone in your home unacompanied on their say so without taking proof of ID as we do?

I can see it now "So Mr serial killer and Mrs Cat Burglar what do you think of our beautiful property?what do you mean it's falling down,this is our pride and joy,an offer!!!! this is our lifes savings!!!! why do we both need to sit down and what is that rope for?!!.

The property mis descriptions act was brought in to stop people writing their own descriptions as they are generally biased.

Paragraph 3.

If this statement were true then nobody would ever sell their home in the UK.

We state the true value of the property based on comparibles and market forces then charge 2% from the sale price,no over inflation and the true price is shown.

How many people do you know that will stand in a hallway with a vendor and haggle over the price face to face?

Paragraph 4;

Not everyone knows what an NIE or Padron is let alone how to get one!

I am afraid your system relies on everyone knowing where the schools,doctors are located and as all internet companies rely on everyone else doing the work and if they get stuck?

In the 2% we charge everything is included we provide the service in the hope that if people are treated correctly then they will tell someone else not by kickbacks from furniture shops etc.

No,it is not neccesary for an agent to stand next to you when doing the padron,but if it makes you feel more comfortable with an unfamiliar system then why not?

I totally agree with you on the solicitor recommendation,nobody should be pushed into using someone they are not comfortable with.

paragraph 5.

I have the benefit of air con in the office which controls the heat,and yes a traditional agency takes a lot of running,for example i have 2 clients arriving at the airprt tommorow one at 5pm and one at 11pm after opening the office at 9.30a.m that will be quite a long day.

I wish you all the best for your venture but i prefer good old customer service.

Regards

Georgia

Oh and by the way,have you read the RULES OF POSTING,is says No commercial posting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Hi Georgia

You forgot something.....

relating to.........

Quote

Paragraph 4;

Not everyone knows what an NIE or Padron is let alone how to get one! and I am afraid your system relies on everyone knowing where the schools,doctors are located and as all internet companies rely on everyone else doing the work and if they get stuck?

Not to mention the language barrier even if they do know where to go to do all these things, do they know what forms are needed on that particular day, yes requirements sometimes change here) haha.

..........What if the clients are coming from the UK to buy who is then helping them to know what forms to bring with them not least from the UK itself , if they are eligible for a long term SIP cards and not a temporary 6 month ones......... it is not possible to carry out certain procedures without the necessary documents for example from Newcastle for the SIP cards you need your E forms and everones situation can be different and what about school enrollment if the clients have children you need medical examinations in most cases and without a SIP card temporary or not most health centres insist on this under the assumption that if you are going to school you are seen to be living here. It is against the law to use the European Health card unless you are on holiday.

We have also only just completed the school enrolment for their 3 children too Copia Simple regietered at the town hall to get padrons to get E106's registered in Orihuella,  and SIP cards, obtained from Health centre where their examinations & injections could be carried out to satisfy the school and then fill in the matriculation forms all 5 pages three of them all in Spanish and then school book shopping all in the service!!

I could go on but I am just printing some Resident certificate application forms for my clients who bought through me some time ago because tomorrow we are applying for this, we have been to the Town Hall today to get new padrons, I went with them as they dont speak Spanish in Albatera Town Hall and my clients dont either but they do have my support still long after the sale..............How many people who move over here are either confident enough to do all these things alone or speak enough Spanish to do so............. that reminds me I am off to the assessoria too later  to pick up some car transfer documents for another client, who doesnt speak Spanish, of course he has to pay for this but its 54 euros straight to the assesor so no 10% included in that for me I earnt my fee when I sold them their house in May!!

I have been that busy this month its a wonder I have the time to reply to this thread at all...........

Not all I agree but some of us work very hard and do as we would be done by!

I think SSD you are not really thinking of the buyer in that the seller does  not need all this helpt, however in my experience the seller have also had back up and help with Capital gains advice what happens when they sell help whenever they ask and of course been kept up to date with things not to mention the promotion of their properties that have ended in sales????????

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Thank you Rixxy and Shar,

The trouble with the internet revolution is that it forgets people ask questions and need advice outside of a fixed criteria or tick box........

Why do people buy cars from dealerships rather than from a layby?surely you would save money from a guy by the side of the road?!

a good agent is like a Swan,Calm on the surface with the legs going like crazy below to get things moving.

SSD,

I do not mean to challenge your motives it is just the fact that you cannot make sweeping statements that will include all agents in the same light,i agree there are greedy agents that charge too much and do a terrible job but thre is also the other side of the coin.

Your website is obviously a profit making organisation and was not created out of the kindnest of your heart  so where does the revenue come from?

Please do not take this personally as you cannot beat a healthy debate.

Regards

Georgia

 

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And how many of us 'awful agents' STILL help clients years after selling or renting out their properties? I know I do and some have become firm friends who ask advice freely on all sorts of subjects - amazingly I dont charge for it!!

 

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Especially the best bars!!

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Huh - cheeky so and so!

 

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OK, below the belt....I concede, yes.....a bit. But only because I am passionate about what I believe in, and that is that buying and selling privately really works, and has very real and tangible benefits for both buyers and sellers.

Private selling is NOT about getting rid of agents entirely.
It is about exploring another avenue, in an attempt  to try and bring about a sale at a point as close to the 'asking price' as possible.

Buyers and sellers (and agents) all too often get 'hooked up' on valuations involving complicated 'banking systems', 'comparables' & 'market forces' (which bamboozle sellers). instead of concentrating on getting the asking price right.
Valuations are NOT the same as asking prices, and in the case of the seller, He or she knows what they paid for their home, how long they have owned it, and what kind of money they need to walk away from it with, in order to finance their next purchase.
They also know what local 'similar' properties are on the market for, and what price,any recently sold properties have sold at.........and if they don't, then selling privately takes you down the route of finding out.

And yes, of course, agents can be a big help here too, because they are a very rich resource of information when it comes to the above, and a good agent should factor all of the above into the equation, when suggesting the asking price to initially market the property at.

But that price will always, of course be higher with an agent, than it need be when selling privately....and THAT is the key benefit for sellers, because it can lead to a quicker sale, because of an immediate edge over similar properties in the area - AND for buyers, because they can achieve better value for money and get more bricks & mortar for their outlay than they could if they bought through an agent.

For a seller, If trying to achieve a sale privately, direct from the current owner does nothing more than galvanise existing agents who have the property on their books, into trying a little harder in order to minimise the chances of a lost commission, then it can only be a good thing. (even perversely, for the agent - if that results in a sale though them for their extra effort).

For the buyer, if a realistic offer that they make is accepted on a privately advertised property at a much lower asking price than through an Estate agent. They WILL save thousands.
They can then easily pay for translators, interpretors, chapperones etc to assist them with ALL aspects of moving to Spain they are unsure about, for a fraction of the costs of buying through an agent, because of the savings made on the sale price.

Georgia said:-  "would you let anyone in your home unacompanied on their say so without taking proof of ID as we do?"
Honestly...No I definately would not. But using a website like mine is not like advertising in 'Exchange & Mart' or 'Daltons Weekly'.

The seller gets contacted through the website (the first line of defence against spam and scam) and any interested party gives the seller their details NOT vice-versa, so all communication is conducted on the sellers terms.
The seller alone decides via emails and then maybe later by a further qualifying telephone conversation or two, whether to proceed to the point of conducting a viewing. And ultimately (whether ID is shown or not), how do we really know if anybody is 100% trustworthy. The fact is, we dont. And neither, Georgia (if you are honest) do you.
At the end of the day, all I am trying to say is that the seller is fully in charge, and in control of the whole process. And that if common sense and a generous dose of caution is applied, I think most people who may have ulterior motives for wanting to view a house will be put off at a very early stage.

Rixxy said:- "because we have given of our time and advice freely and CONTRIBUTE to this site - unlike yourself."

Am I not allowed to join a debate, and offer an opinion on a thread topic just because I have only just arrived on the scene?

My contributions may not equal yours in number, but does that automatically make my points any less vaild?

The basis for your arguments to issues that I have raised, seem to be based solely on placing the blame for unsold properties squarely on the shoulders of the property owners themselves. Who all ask too much of buyers, and whom should not expect to get what they want for their home.....Sorry, but I disagree with that.

If an Estate agent is restricting a seller or buyer in any way, or is trying to dissuade a client or potential client from selling  property privately…..then they should ask themselves, ‘Why?'

Actually, I think you are right Rixxy, in your closing statement. -  Readers of this forum will make up there own minds....explore ALL avenues, and add as many 'strings to their bow' (sorry, terrible cliche ) as possible.

This message was last edited by ssd on 9/13/2007.

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Think the point they are both trying to make is that they only started making people aware of what they did (as in website in address) quite a long time after they started contributing - no tonly to property related threads but things about NIEs, driving, health, social security etc - have to say that yours was quite a blatant approach as in lets come in and have a `pop at the agents (loosely speaking - you'll get used to the way I write) recommend direct sales get my website recognised and then push off - while I concur you do have every right to your opinion it seems a little blatant that right from the off you are promoting your wares and no helpful stuff elsewhere first  

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Most certainly I am not trying to dissuade owners from selling privately - in fact I openly advise owners to market their properties through any means possible to acheive a sale.

I know any property is saleable, the common factor being the price and here my friend is where you fall down. Owners think because next door is FOR SALE at a certain price that theirs is worth at least the same if not more! Possibly true in the UK market where a price is determined by a comparable, but here where there are so many pricing differential factors it is much harder!

The Same property is likely to be advertised by various agents and owners at all differing prices! Check any of the multiple listing websites to see this one. Most agents havent a clue and employ listers to go out and get properties on the books - these guys are also paid a commission only on the sale of that property.

The true price of a property (and any commodity) is what the buyer is prepared to pay for it- no more and no less. BUT agents are there to advise and explain and negotiate on both parties behalf.

Never mind using their skills at marketing. Many owners do not expound or fully explain their property, the positioning location OR the negatives! Which makes for the description to be very biased AGAINST the buyer. Most buyers are fine if the issues that may trouble them are explained fully, but an owner wont do that. Many owners dont even know the full address of their proeprties never mind anything else about it.

The fact is as I have painstakingly explained on other threads and indeed forums is that you have a pricing structure as follows:-

1. The asking price agreed between owner and agent or mainly the owner
2. The bank valuation - NOT a comparable system but based on euros per square metre - at least a fact
3. The actual selling price - known only to buyer, seller and possibley agent if involved - at least a fact
4. The declared price on the escritura

So - no way of knowing what a property should be pitched at! Many other factors to take into account a lay person would not understand or comprehend. We KNOW how to market a property honestly but to tempt people enough to look at it or enquire about it.

Another vital point is when a property comes on, we have a current database of buyers to whom we call and pitch the property to. The last 2 sales I made were within 1 hour of receiveing instructions and via phone calls to clients waiting for that type of property!!

As for your potshot about freely contributing - I initially came onto this forum just before december. I got all sorts of accusations flung at me as I am an agent - well actually I have an auction house as well as an agency.

Once contributors where happy with me and my postings I was oked to have my site in the signature, but I have NEVER blatently promoted what I do and in fact GEORGIA pays to advertise on this site - perhaps it would be a true show of your good faith to do so yourself!

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