Interesting article re the property market

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Oasis Thabernax Country Club forum threads
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24 Apr 2008 1:01 PM by jethro Star rating in guildford. 111 forum posts Send private message

you are right rowlands, it validates the plans put forward by the town hall, huma have sent the docs. to my lawyer today, and if he ok"s them then i am convinced, huma were on the phone to me today when they were informed that the bank were going to execute our guarantee plus interest, and they said they even expect to complete before the 15 months!!!! bit worrying regards the workmanship quality, but lets wait and see


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24 Apr 2008 9:23 PM by johnfozard Star rating. 143 forum posts Send private message

Can I state my position clearly - I bought ACC and have decided that I will pursue a full refund via Court Action. I do not trust Huma.I do not personally think this is the right time to invest in any Spanish property for the next 2-3 years at least.

However, I stupidly recommended elderly friends to purchase @ ACC and feel highly responsible for that poor advice in hindsight.

My friends are desperate to go to Spain but are relying on me to further advise them and of course I feel very worried to advise a transfer to OCC, which they have asked my opinion on.

It appears to me first that the Spanish property market is ready to free fall - if not already started with key ready properties been offered wholesale @ 30-40% discount in many locations.

Does this make Oasis a good buy as I understand from talks Huma refuse any discounts or compensation even for ACC transfers?. Does this not make OCC very expensive in this current marketplace and probably way over priced in the short term as the prices will almost certainly continue to fall rapidly all over Spain bringing all prices down - off plan, key ready & resale?  Are Huma depending on ACC transfers to keep prices high! I would be interested to hear comments from purchasers - who must have carefully considered this and justified their decision.  The problem from a financial assessment is that if you purchased @ ACC for say £50k deposit on a property price of £120k - then since Huma are not offering disounts - then if your OCC property sold for £120k is worth only £60k in 2 years - then you would have been better walking away losing your £50k deposit than end up losing £60k on the resale value of the newly occupied OCC property when built.

The problem is no-one can predict the resale value @ OCC or the property market in 2010 - but it does not fill me with great expectations.

The other financial problems are that the pound is falling rapidly against the Euro and will continue to do so in the next 12-24 months. That means that when you pay the £60k above - you will have to pay say 20% more for your Euros than in 2004/5 and so you pay £72k - a further cost/loss of £12k.

I feel there could be a potential capital loss of £72k on a £120k property. Of course if you are buying not as a safe investment but purely as a holiday home for you - you may be happy to wait many,many years to recover parity resale price and feel you have benefited from possession - but make no capital appreciation.

I think to transfer to OCC just to secure any previous payments is a worrying strategy if that is the only reason.

Obviously I am painting a pessismistic picture, but as an Accountant and involved in the Construction industry - I deal in figures and financial forecasting- I am surrounded by looming doom and gloom in the UK property/construction sector. There are to be some sensational news to come soon in the counstruction arena. Some shocks will be released in the next few weeks.

I would welcome replies that question some of these financial assumptions - as even writing this it really scares me. I hope I am wrong but fear I might be proved right.

I am toying with suggesting that my friends walk away from their £50k and buy somwhere else in 1-2 years time and be much better off - as they could get possibly a £60k plus discount off by then. I actually think they could get a £50k discount today on certain areas. That is a hell of a responsibility to shoulder!! I fully accept that getting refunds back from ACC will be difficult and lengthy and may never happen - so I have warned them they could loose their £50k deposit.

The other question I would like someone to answer - which may help me make a decision is that Huma have made no siginficant revenue over the last 2-3 years. So most of the income came from ACC.  ACC is now dead - so all the purchasers will be going to Court - the cost of this will be very high to Huma.

Huma must have used money from ACC to purchase OCC and fund operations (unless someone has other evidence they have not). This means the costs of legal recovery will be high for Huma in 2008/9 there are many Writs in final preparation ready to be placed to the Courts.

Will this mean that Huma will soon run out of money (if they actually have any) fighting court cases and refunds/compensation? - I cannot see anyone settling out of court anymore with Huma bouncing cheques. Does that mean OCC could easily be stopped for financial reasons - not illegallity this time?

Since there is a direct relationship between Huma Indalo and Huma Mediterraneo - and ACC  was illegal I think legally the Huma group of companies/ Directors will be responsible for all ACC refunds/compensation.

Again I may be wrong on this - but has anyone specifically asked this question direct to Huma and your own solicitors, to ensure OCC will be delivered and Huma is financially stable - even after refunding all ACC claims.

I am not scaremongering - these are legitimate questions that need an airing and need to be debated and answered. I would welcome to hear other people's comments. I have been totally ignored when writing to Huma to answer the above questions.

As an Accountant - I deal in facts and the law and in forecasting/budgeting  - looking at present trends and future risks/market conditions and opinion. All the indicators are bad and falling currently. All markets usually eventually rise - the trick is predicting when and not buying at the high point.

I hope OCC happens and investment value is at least acceptable and all ACC clients are refunded in full. I sincerely hope everything works out for everyone! But there are so many fundamental questions left unanswered! It is a pity Huma are not open at all to any talks at a senior level with clients. The girls in customer service/sales are just nothings in the higher structure of the company. I have been told they have no authority on several occasions to answer such questions.

John




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25 Apr 2008 11:17 AM by MartinG Star rating. 14 forum posts Send private message

John - a very interesting post and I understand your dilema. All of us caught up in this 'mess' face the same 'unknowns'. It would appear to me that you are very knowlegable about the property business and financial affairs ( I mean that genuinely ) so I guess you are the best person to advise them. I suppose it all comes down to how much 'weight' one gives to all the future unknowns/risks that you identify and also  peoples' motives for buying in the first place. If one's motive is not purely investment return ( in our case we want a place in Spain to use and enjoy and intend to keep it for many years to come ) then a different view may be taken from someone who might want to sell again in the short term. At the end of the day I think we must all do our own research ( and certainly not rely on website postings) and make our own decisions. It would be really nice if there was no element of risk attached to buying property but that will never happen.


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25 Apr 2008 11:57 AM by johnfozard Star rating. 143 forum posts Send private message

Martin

Please be assured - I am not criticising anyone for their decision. I truly wish you all the best - purchasers @ OCC. I am sure Huma knew ages ago ACC would not go ahead. They took a flyer and lost.

We all know this is a mess - not of our makings. Until you get the keys and move in - there is obvious great risk here.

I cannot get answers to any major questions - I pose below from anyone.

I am merely - posing important questions that need an honest answer - especially from Huma - but we know we will never get any from them. Maybe some of your solictiors have got answers to this or could get them - Huma are not talking to my solicitor - so where can I go to? Huma know I want to cancel and won't respond to me personally.

If anybody has answers and better information or anything to add or even argue against - I would welcome an open discussion - this is what a forum should be for to exchange ideas/information and sort out problems.

This nightmare just rolls on - there are times when I just want to walk away and forget it all but Huma have 100k Euors of my money - so I have no choice but to battle on - which just dominates our life currently and has killed our holiday plans for the last year and into the future.

I just want to make sure that if new UK people (ie not ACC) are looking at OCC via Parador,MSI & any agents - they are aware there are major issues with Huma.

I know all  you OCC people probably would like ACC people to go away - but they have £35m of our money somewhere and we need the courts to get it back!

John

 

 




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25 Apr 2008 1:55 PM by MartinG Star rating. 14 forum posts Send private message

John - It's not about wanting ACC people to go away ( I was/still am one, as yet have not completed the transfer to OCC and will only do so if and when we receive a replacement BG for our current ACC one), its about everyone in this mess getting the outcome they personlly feel is best for them as speedily as possible. Whatever route out we choose to take has risks attached - will ACC ever be built for those that wish to hold on, will OCC happen as it should for those that swap and will court action be successful for those that choose this option????. I fully understand the anger of those who are having to take court action when simple requests for return of money should be sufficient - may still have to take that route myself if OCC doesn't work out. What I would say is that if Huma fail us on OCC the situation for those wanting their money back will only get worse, not better.


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25 Apr 2008 5:12 PM by rowlandsbb Star rating in Gloucestershire &Hue.... 779 forum posts Send private message

rowlandsbb´s avatar

John

I note you are an accountant and if you advise someone to walk away from £50k on the basis that Huma are bad guys and an ' accountants view' on property ....then I hope your professional indemnity premiums are up to date!!!

Even if you do not like Huma . before you advise your friends at least have a look at OTCC and so should they

Huma Indalo SL is a different company and as an accountant you should know how banks help their clients and themselves to get out of a mess like ACC  

If circa 62 % of ACC buyers change to OTCC they have a fully sold development project

All buyers have guarantees

Build cost the same as if they were back on site at ACC

Nice way out for everyone

Provided that you like the site

a 2 bed bungalow at 116/119.000 € in Spain is  never going to be as cheap again even though the whole of EU property market has stopped.....that is my personal property view as a buyer who has changed

People pay more for a caravan in UK!!...so be real if you are a LIfe Style purchaser and happen to like the site then long term ' its a pretty good buy' .......even though you will have years of enjoyment from it

If you are a dealer or invester then you look at it from a different perspective and have to accept the ' dealers ' risks .....dealers are dealers and can look after themselves 

I have said this before but will repeat it:

Stating that Huma and their banks are doing this as a ' big con' which will never get built ........ really does stretch ones imagination

Why go to all the trouble......simply do a Phoenix restructuring of ACC ....we all lose our money if no BG and they walk away with all the profit.....done all the time in UK!!!

If you have a BG then by all means get your money back.......but if not in my view not sensible to make a decision about OTCC or MCC option based on a ' Hate Huma' attitude

going to court against big companies [ even  if they have problems] and banks is a very expensive and risky option....good luck if you can afford to do it ....I cant!  




This message was last edited by rowlandsbb on 4/25/2008.

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25 Apr 2008 7:04 PM by AndyLynnW Star rating. 142 forum posts Send private message

Going to Court is 5000 euros.

That is the firm price from our solicitors and includes use of the Notary.

2,500 Euros in advance. The remainder at the conclusion of the court case. At Court costs will be applied for in the likely event of succeding.

It is NOT Expensive and the risk is minimal as HUMA have Breached a Contract.

Dont be scared to go down this route despite the closing comment of  (the Agent)  Rowlandsbb.

(Details of the Solictor in Vera who is acting for us for this fee on request)




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25 Apr 2008 7:43 PM by rowlandsbb Star rating in Gloucestershire &Hue.... 779 forum posts Send private message

rowlandsbb´s avatar

Agreed..do not be scared to go down the court route and good luck to those who do

But appreciate the risks and options

In UK the mayority of court actions are settled out of court and no doubt it is the same in Spain because however good your case you just do not know what happens in Court!! 

Maybe' if OTCC is sold out by transfers from ACC, then the banks and Huma  may cut their losses and offer a deal to settle

So those of us who have and are changing to OTCC and MCC ,may indirectly help those without BG get their money back  

Just a thought



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26 Apr 2008 8:34 PM by jethro Star rating in guildford. 111 forum posts Send private message

well said barbara, i agree with you entirely




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28 Apr 2008 9:23 AM by AndyLynnW Star rating. 142 forum posts Send private message

Does anyone who changed across to OTCC have , in their hand, a Bank Guarantee ?  

(Not a date for one, or a promise of one, but the actual real thing?)




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28 Apr 2008 8:57 PM by jethro Star rating in guildford. 111 forum posts Send private message

i thought i had posted this once, but cannot find it, anyway, the latest e-mail from my lawer, so proceed with caution!!

 

Dear Jeff
 
I have received the information from Huma on the above, which is the following:
 
- Technical report from the "Consejería de Obras Públicas y Transportes" of the Junta de Andalucía regarding the Partial Plan, Sector S-2B of Tabernas, which is the area of the Thabernax C.C. devolpment.
 
- Certification of the Final Approval of the Partial Plan and Special Plan of Sector S-2B from the Town Hall of Tabernas.
 
- Final approval of the "Proyecto de Urbanización" of Sector S-2B from the Town Hall of Tabernas.
 
- Building licence to build 32 houses in SEctor S-2B to Huma Indalo S.L. conditioned by several requirements established in a technical report issued by the Architect of the Town Hall and the deposit of 28.687,25 Euros as guarantee. Dated 20th December 2007.
 
- Urbanistic Building licence of Sector S-2B in favour of Huma Indalo SL to build the infrastructure, i.e. roads, electricity,  water pipes, etc for the entire development, dated 2nd August 2007.
 
- Urbanistic Licence to build 114 houses "Huerto de la Palmares" under the condition to present the following:
 
        * a study on security and health
        * telecommunication project for the building
        * appointment of a Technical Director
 
        Dated 28th January 2008
 
- Search of the plot of August 2007, in which the plot appears to be a rustic plot. I have requested an update and will you inform on the same.
 
- Letter from ACC Insurance Compnay granting Huma Indalo SL a guarantee up to 15.000.000 Euros. Dated 4th August 2006.
 
I have to check all the above documentation with the Town Hall.
 
Regarding the guarantee, I told Jose María Garcia from Huma that I will advise my clients not to sign any contract in Tabernas up until:
 
    * I have checked that all licences have been granted.
    * they obtain their guarantee upon signature of the contract and not any later.
    * the contract covers the purchasers' rights.
    * the property appears at the Land Registry as an urban one.
    * the people from ACC receive a compensation. I will try to obtain that those people who have been waiting longer and have paid a higher deposit, obtain more compensation.
 
I think that the houses for sale are those referred to in the Building licence for 32 houses.
 
I will keep you informed.
 
Kind regards
 
Gonzalo Recarte
 



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04 May 2008 10:07 AM by AndyLynnW Star rating. 142 forum posts Send private message

I asked 5 days ago if anyone who had moved to OTCC had a Bank Guarantee in their hand.

No one has said yes they have.

This is the problem for us in moving across. If one of the motives is to get a guarantee for the money we put down for ACC and there are no Bank Guarantees forthcoming for OTCC, then there is something wrong.

Surely a BG should be no problem and be issued ?  Why havent they ? People started moving across a couple of months ago. Surely they have one ? 

If not, why ? This is an important part of the decision making process which makes me think that moving is still with risk and Court is the better option.

Is not having a BG a problem ? 




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05 May 2008 7:07 PM by reidpj Star rating. 239 forum posts Send private message

As most of you are aware I've transferred to MCC.  All I can hope is that OTCC is at least half the build quality of MCC.  I don't say this lightly but I've stayed in dozens of properties in Spain, and MCC is 'up there' amongst the best.  Good luck to you all

 

Peter




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07 May 2008 2:47 PM by jackb Star rating. 201 forum posts Send private message

       Hi    huma must give refunds to buyers who purchased at the

ACC and who will not be blackmailed in to OCC or MCC if we wanted

these sites we would have purchased there    give us our money back!!

if you are new to Huma or any of the Country Clubs   BEWERE




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18 May 2008 2:56 PM by JoeToGo Star rating. 5 forum posts Send private message

Just Read This On Another Forum

Sort Of Says It All Really... and explains why Parador are so keen to push Oasis TCC

 


 MCC was well under way in September 2001, which is when I saw it for the first time with P****r. Somebody from Huma's office gave a presentation about the development and was keen to mention the "Community Swimming Pool" and the "9 Hole Golf Course" and the "Commercial Area with Shops, Cafes, Restaurants etc etc" These "Facilities" were due for completion (back then) within 18 months and the entire site finshed within 3 years
6 1/2 years later and I dont need to repeat what has already been posted and is now common knowledge.

However this next piece of information may not be common knowledge.

P*****r P********s due to tax reasons and legal reasons had to set up a subsiduary company in Spain to deal with the commissions from sales with the Spanish builders and to pay their "self employed" sales agents.
The name of this company is Iniciativas de Ventas SL with hierarcy PP owners being listed as directors. I d V is the same company that acts as the exclusive agent between Huma on ACC and Oasis sites and other estate agents in Spain and as a result gets a commision on each and every sale that is made. In other words.. for every sale on ACC and Oasis P.P. get somthing out of it. The land at ACC was bought between directors of P.P. and IdV and Huma, thats why they need to divert peoples attention away from refunds in order that they do not end up with the possibilty of going broke. It is the same gang of crooks trying to pull the same strokes.

Huma were not selling many properties at MCC until P.P. jumped into bed with them and then everything took off for Huma. In Huma's eyes P.P. were the dog's Blx as far as sales went and from this beautiful relationship came the B'trd child ACC who now has a little sister Oasis.

Look at how long MCC has taken to be built and it is still not completed.
ACC has turned into a pure nightmare for so many people.
Oasis is in the middle of nowhere and for some it will just prolong the agony.





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18 May 2008 7:07 PM by rowlandsbb Star rating in Gloucestershire &Hue.... 779 forum posts Send private message

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Well maybe...but history and does it matter now

ACC is 'just now a 'non re-starter'

ACC buyers with no BG who have changed to OTCC are getting a BG[me included!]

New contracts are completion circa Sept / Nov 2009...a sensible time scale 

Work has started at OTCC...fact...see photos!!!!

from all reports many from ACC [ with and without BG @ ACC] are changing over]

To suggest that OTCC is a con....is just not realistic

Now if you have a BG for ACC .....you have another option!

But if you do not...then at least have a look at OTCC...if PP are making a bit of a profit out of it.....does it matter!!!

The most important point is:

That Huma Indalo SL [ the new company] are going to make a profit out of OTCC......hope so ...otherwise the family [ & their bankers]  who own 'Huma' would not I suspect have starting the building!!!

Having no BG for ACC....OTCC is a good way forward

 



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18 May 2008 7:28 PM by AndyLynnW Star rating. 142 forum posts Send private message

Does anyone have in their hand a BG for OTCC ?

(Not a promise of one, or one guaranteed in thirty days but actually in their hand?) 




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18 May 2008 7:46 PM by rowlandsbb Star rating in Gloucestershire &Hue.... 779 forum posts Send private message

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I have had an e-mail from a ACC buyer who has > OTCC who has a BG > completion Sept 2009, with a 2 month allowance for delay

It is not a ' Bank'' guarantee but from ' in our terms' an Insurance Company

This complies with  Spanish Law and ' in reality' is just the same 

This statement is a ' touch' of ' reaility' in the middle of ' a credit crunch' !!!

If you have a BG for ACC then you have options

No BG for ACC...[I do not] ...... then guys at least have a look at OTCC!!!

[or MCC]

Go to court in ' Spain' if that is your decision...good luck

 

 



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20 May 2008 9:24 AM by AndyLynnW Star rating. 142 forum posts Send private message

Thank-you for the reply. 

You moved over more than 30 days ago, do you mind me asking if you have a BG or one of these  "Insurance" Company documents, or neither  ?

Why did we have BG for ACC but now this "Insurance" document ? 

Why cant` the Bank issue a BG for this new project ?

Is this a reflection on HUMAS current financial state of health ?

Many Thanks. 


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20 May 2008 10:39 AM by reidpj Star rating. 239 forum posts Send private message

Los avales (guarantees) are routinely issued by both the banks and insurance companies in Spain.


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